I’ve seen several references to some sort of rift between the users of these instances today. What’s happening?
Obviously this is my opinion based off observations I’ve made, and not every user or sub in each instance falls under this generalization.
Both instances have a lot of users, and they have ideological differences, so they inevitably butt heads. Depending on who you ask, ML mainly has socialists, communists, or tankies. World seems to be more centrist leaning to the left, but it seems to be accepting of a more varied range of political opinions. Considering a lot of Lemmy users came from Reddit, I think a comparison can be drawn. My opinion is that World users have an ideology similar to most of Reddit and seem more likely to have left Reddit because they took issue with specific Reddit admin policies. On the other hand, ML users would have had an ideology that was more fringe for Reddit, and while they may have had issues with Reddit admins as well, they seem more likely to have left Reddit because their views were not well accepted among Reddit’s general population.
My only issue with .ml that it’s pretty much lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net in disguise. They are simply not being honest about who the instance is for.
Don’t misunderstand. I don’t have anything against any of them, but they should really just be honest who lemmy.ml is for. Just like lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net is.
Lemmygrad.ml first rule is: No capitalist apologia / anti-communism.
This is pretty much a hidden rule on Lemmy.ml.
I remember a long time ago when Nutomic was hosting peertube.social. There, the rules was very honest and you knew what you signed up for in the instance. So why not just do that now as well?
Hint: look at Dessalines modlog
I don’t actually disagree with making it clear that Lemmy.ml is communist-friendly.
You guys ever notice how the .ml crowd comes out in droves to defend each other?
They probably have a discord where they coordinate actions so that none of them have to defend their cult alone.
It’s pretty sad.
This was like the 15th post on my active feed scroll. No coordination necessary
a discord
discord
it is .world which has the discord server, there isn’t even a matrix chat for .ml as far as I know.
This will go well. But some people want lemmy to be like reddit, shitty politics and censorship inclusive.
I don’t know but this is not the way to look good if people are trying to leave Reddit’s shit.
They’re going to see this stupid sissy slap-fight and go “aw, fuck dude, I left Reddit for this?” and then turn away.
Good job, dumbasses.
.world is basically a bunch of neoliberals who think anything to the left of Reagan are tankies.
Some of see the world as it is and ML can’t see how full of it they are.
Edit: I feel only satisfaction and validation when I get downvoted for setting the tankies straight.
.world is full of apologists and denialists for western imperialism
.ml is full of tankies who think that ALL Americans are fascists (even those of us currently being terrorized by fascists).
FSM help you if you ever try to inject sanity into one of their “debates”
finally a both sides argument I can get behind !
Almost no one is apologizing for what the west does. We just can’t see any difference between china and the west when it comes to imperialism. Tibet comes to mind and the fact they want to pick the next dali lama. Like its their imperialists right. They have done the same things that the west has done and done them in this century. Tankies just insist on their lies knowing what they say isn’t true.
The PRC isn’t imperialist, though. For example, BRI isn’t imperialist, because it results in mutual development. Where the west goes in and plunders and underdevelops the global south, countries in BRI see rising wages and industrialization, escaping the endless trap of imperialism. Does China benefit too? Absolutely. Is it imperialism? No. Here are some good articles:
Instead, Imperialism is characterized by the following:
-The presence of monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life.
-The merging of bank capital with industrial capital into finance capital controlled by a financial oligarchy.
-The export of capital as distinguished from the simple export of commodities.
-The formation of international monopolist capitalist associations (cartels) and multinational corporations.
-The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism.
-The territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers.
The global north, Europe and the US included, uses this export of capital to super-exploit foreign labor for super-profits. It also engages in unequal exchange, where the global south is prevented from moving up the value chain in production, allowing the global north to charge monopoly prices for commodities produced in the same labor hours.
The point I am making isn’t simply about land conquering, but an ongoing process of shifting surplus value and resources from the imperialized to the core. Finance capital is the primary mechanism by which this functions.
As for Tibet, Tibet was a feudal slave society backed by the CIA. The PLA liberated Tibet.
Two exerpts from Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth:
CW: descriptions of torture
Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.” [12]
Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. [13] Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” [14] In fact it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.
Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeatedremoved, beginning at age nine. [15] The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.
In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. [16] The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care. They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord’s land — or the monastery’s land — without pay, to repair the lord’s houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand. [17] Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. [18]
As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.
One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.” [19] Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed. [20]
The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery. [21]
The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.
Selection two, shorter: (CW sexual violence and mutilation)
The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation — including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation — were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. [22]
Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.” [23] Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. [24]
In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who wasremovedd and then had her nose sliced away. [25]
-Dr. Michael Parenti
Tibet is no longer under such a tortured regime, and has since seen skyrocketing quality of life metrics like life expectancy, industrialization, and more. The west uses the narrative of “oppression” as though the working classes of Tibet want to return to such brutal conditions, but in reality it’s the former aristocracy and the Dalai Lama that wish to return to their positions as a ruling class.
☝️
We don’t think every single statesian is a fascist, but we do recognize that much of the statesian public is fascist along with the state. The US is a settler-colony, after all.
Obviously I’m generalizing and don’t think everyone on either instance is such a simplistic thinker. But I’ve been on the receiving end of plenty of insults from .ml accounts implying that ALL Americans are indistinguishable from Jefferson Davis.
I genuinely have not seen that, perhaps we interpret the same comments different ways?
Perhaps.
Side note - you don’t deserve all this down voting. You’re engaging in good faith and making reasonable statements (more reasonable than my initial comment deserved, frankly). Its unfortunate that attempting to bring nuance to an online discussion usually results in hateful backlash. That’s not a .ml or .world problem. Just an Internet problem.
Thanks, but no worries, I’m used to it. I have some severely dedicated haters. I just wish that they would actually try to respond to what they downvote, rather than silently downvote, as there’s no learning process created by that. Or when they run off to anti-communist drama communities (usually removing vital context), rather than directly addressing what I have to say.
I have some severely dedicated haters
Then you must be doing something right.
I don’t like the line of logic that states “getting hate = correct,” but I do think people should have who their haters are be factored in. Many people are rightly hated, like Netanyahu, but largely by entirely reasonable people. I can’t say my haters are particularly reasonable.
But thanks for the compliment!
Also, I respect your insistence on using a term other than American to describe people from the US.
Growing up in the US, calling ourselves American is a hard habit to break, but I recognize how dismissive and insulting it is to the rest of the people living in North and South America.
Also, I respect your insistence on using a term other than American to describe people from the US.
Because no one else belongs to a state and so calling ourselves “statesians” is therefore better?
Its not a perfect term. Changing language is difficult and messy.
Do you have suggestions for something better (not meant to be snarky, I genuinely would like to find a good alternative and I bet cowbee would like input as well)?
Usonian is another term I’ve heard, but it sounds even worse.
2·2 hours agoIt’s not quite as easily understood as statesian or usonian, but I quite like what Erika3sis uses: Seppo
What’s the background in that one?
Actually, by this chart, seppos are those materially aligned with the hegemony, and she also uses usonians and americans.
Yep, thanks! I’m a Statesian myself, and see settler-colonialism as the primary contradiction domestically. Calling myself an “American” is, as you said, dismissive and insulting to the rest of the Americas, most of which aren’t settler-colonies.
All of America’s are settler colonies. Or are they not to you because they are not White.
Much of latin and south America are predominantly indigenous, whereas the USA and Canada in particular wiped out the vast majority of the indigenous populations. Mexicans, for example, are largely a mix of Spanish and indigenous, ie mestizo, with around 20% identifying as indigenous. This is in stark contrast to the US and Canada.
I’d also like to add that, as far as I know, USA (and to a lesser extent Canada) are the only two states in the Americas that are still actively colonizing other places, including other parts of the Americas.
Yep, that’s also true!
me on sh:
Marxist-Leninists have a few takes that draw major friction between liberals who enjoy the idea of socialism/communism but haven’t really engaged with the theory and history of Marxism, such as:
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MLs strongly oppose the west, including Europe, as the imperial hegemony. Liberals tend to not see Europe as imperialist even if it relies on imperialism, so when an ML calls for abolishing NATO this can cause friction.
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MLs advocate for completely rejecting the DNC and GOP in the US, and instead running a working class party and organizing outside of the electoral system. Liberals tend to believe in voting for the DNC as “harm reduction,” but MLs look as the system itself and see the DNC as propping up the same imperialist system, necessitating working outside of this.
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Disagreements on Actually Existing Socialism. MLs tend to support existing socialist countries, and liberals tend not to. MLs typically take a non-western viewpoint on socialist countries, and tend to have studied Marxism more in-depth, while liberals tend to take the western viewpoint and not have studied Marxism very much. This causes more friction.
This is why MLs and liberals tend to clash. If you want to learn more about Marxism-Leninism, I made an intro reading list you can check out.
The way you compare the two groups initially gave me the impression you try to give an objective comparison :D
I am trying to be objective, but I’m also a Marxist-Leninist. I’m biased, as everyone is.
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World users are just mad that the lemmy devs use ML which means they can’t verifiably call them uneducated morons, and ML users are mad that the World users are just smart enough to know the difference between socialism and communism that they won’t just auto buy into it lol.
How beautifully put
what is the difference between socialism and communism?
I wish they were smart enough to know the difference between socialism and communism.
Socialism is when public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state, communism is when all production and distribution have been collectivized through socialism. Communism is therefore a post-socialist society, and socialism cannot last as a static system without advancing towards communism, because nothing is static.
Centrists on .world periodically pick an instance to their left and designate it the “tankie” instance. They won’t rest until we’re only allowed to say nice things about genocide.
Oooh a honeypot of group-think users to block. Thanks OP!
ML is run by heavily-indoctrinated communists. They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
lemmy.world is kind of run by pussies. They blocked the piracy sublemmy for no real reason other than that.
It doesn’t surprise me they are butting heads. Hopefully the instances that allow interaction with both instances triumph over those that try to restrict access.
It’s absolutely absurd that westerners consider people with wildly heterodox views to be the “indoctrinated” ones.
Supporting communists is not the same as worship. The devs and mods are certainly ideologically committed, but not out of sheer blind religious adherance.
Right. You guys don’t just “support” communists; you worship them.
No? I’m a communist, and I support communism. Worship has nothing to do with it. Can you explain what you mean by that?
If you’re truly clueless and not just feigning ignorance, then head on over to !worldnews@lemmy.ml and say something critical of a communist leader.
See how quickly you get banned.
You are feigning ignorance though because that’s how indoctrinated you are.
I’ve been critical of communists and communist leaders before, I think you’re confusing disinformation being removed with any and all critique being removed. Critique based on disinformation isn’t valid critique.
Maybe you weren’t banned because you wre from .ml they have banned me on an alt account for expressing my opinion that soviet occupation didn’t help my country.
Modlog link? I maintain that critique based on disinformation isn’t valid critique, so it depends on what you said.
Sure you did. You’re going to say whatever you think will defend your indoctrination.
That’s how this works.
Anyone with a brain can look at the lemmy.ml modlog to see for themselves that you’re full of shit.
I’ve mentioned that the PRC is lacking in LGBTQIA+ rights (though they are improving), that population transfer in the soviet union was one of its worst crimes, that Stalin’s homophobia was deeply reactionary, that I’d prefer if the PRC was more millitantly anti-imperialist than they are presently, that revisionism and mismanagement began a trend of liberalization in the USSR that contributed to its collapse, that the PRC made a huge error in backing Cambodia against Vietnam, and much more than this.
I’m not “indoctrinated,” and anyond can look at the Lemmy.ml modlog to see for themselves that you’re full of shit.
I just checked the most recent lemmy.ml modlog and it was someone getting their comments removed for calling someone a racist because they said that most white people are racist.
head on over to !worldnews@lemmy.ml and say something critical of a communist leader.
Look at who you’re replying to. They’re not capable of fulfilling your request.
I already have done so, though.
ML is run by heavily-indoctrinated communists. They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
It’s run by Russia bots who are pumping out Kremlin talking points whilst deleting anyone who is critical.
I got deleted for pointing out Putin runs a mafia state.
Shit even the Russian communist don’t like Putin.
I wonder how much the “Russian running ML” is getting paid to shape the opinions of all 25 people on this platform. Must be making bank
Kremlin and China.
It’s a shame, because I do think China is doing a lot of things correct right now. But these people make me question every fucking thing I read about them.
Great to see straight up McCarthyism come back into fashion. Why consider other views when you can just declare anyone who disagrees with you to be a non-human foreigner.
I got deleted for pointing out Putin runs a mafia state.
From checking the modlog you got a comment removed and a temp ban for insulting someone
Is it an insult against Putin to declare he is running a mafia state?
Where do you dumb fucks get this shit from?
Keep on making shit up you dumb ass.
Modlog strikes again.
Every time.
*Clutches pearls*
no, it was calling another poster a dumbass, and a dumb fuck
Where do you dumb fucks get this shit from?) Thirdly Russia had to invade and hold phony referendums in order to somehow prove eastern Ukraine didn’t want to become part of Europe. Keep on making shit up you dumb ass.
insults people
gets moderated
“I AM A FREE SPEECH WARRIOR FIGHTING PUTIN”
They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
I wouldn’t phrase it at that. They’re fans of Russia, China, Iran, and pretty much any other country that’s antagonistic to the US. This regardless of whether said state is communist, especially Russia, which has become fascist under Putin’s rule.
In short, the .ml owners are tankies
MLs aren’t “fans” of Russia or Iran, but value their geopolitical opposition to the west, the imperialist hegemony. MLs do tend to be fans of the PRC, as it’s a socialist country. The idea that a country has to be 100% ideologically aligned in order to get even critical support from a communist just plays into the idea that communists are obsessed with purity testing, but that’s not the case.
If you disagree that .ml are communist and insist that they’re “tankies” instead, it seems to imply that not all communists are “tankies.” However, every single communist I’m aware of is called a tankie. What does a communist who isn’t a tankie look like? Are there examples of such a thing?
Are you saying communism necessarily implies authoritarianism? What about anarchists?
The anarchist conception of communism is more like communalism, while the Marxist conception is more like collectivism. When I say “communalization,” I mean anarchists propose horizontalist, decentralized cells, similar to early humanity’s cooperative production but with more interconnection and modern tech. When I say collectivization, I mean the unification of all of humanity into one system, where production and distribution is planned collectively to satisfy the needs of everyone as best as possible.
For anarchists, collectivized society still seems to retain the state, as some anarchists conflate administration with the state as it represents a hierarchy. For Marxists, this focus on communalism creates inter-cell class distinctions, as each cell only truly owns their own means of production, giving rise to class distinctions and thus states in the future.
For Marxists, socialism must have a state, a state can only wither with respect to how far along it has come in collectivizing production and therefore eliminating class. All states are authoritarian, but we cannot get rid of the state without erasing the foundations of the state: class society, and to do so we must collectivize production and distribution globally. Socialist states, where the working class wields its authority against capitalists and fascists, are the means by which this collectivization can actually happen, and are fully in-line with Marx’s beliefs. Communism as a stateless, classless, moneyless society is only possible post-socialism.
Abolishing the state overnight would not create the kind of society Marxists advocate for advancing towards, and if anything, would result in the resumption of competition and the resurgance of capitalism if Marx and Engels predictions are correct.
None of this was specific to Marxism-Leninism, but Marxism in general. In this sense, Marxist communism does believe in using state authority to oppress the bourgeousie and reactionaries, just like capitalists use the state to oppress the working classes and revolutionaries. The major difference is that socialist states are working class authorities, not owning class, and as such the class interest points to negating class and therefore the basis of the state. This is why dialectical materialism is core to Marxism.
Anarchists are cool, but they’re really only a minority of communists worldwide. Whatever you think “authoritarianism” is (as far as I’m concerned if you believe in having a state at all, then that state will exercise a monopoly on violence and will be repressive) it describes almost every single communist on planet earth. The game of splitting hairs on what does and doesn’t count as a “tankie” achieves nothing but divide a movement that has common cause.
If I’m being forthright, I’ll just go ahead and ask: if anarchists are the only communists, why even have the concept of “tankies” at all? Why not just say you’re pro-anarchist and anti-communist? From my perspective, all that the whole thing of saying that there supposedly are communists who aren’t “tankies” achieves is create two categories:
- Real people who exist in the real world and have actual, flawed political movements
- Imaginary perfect people that only exist in your head
Then because you can find real examples of the first category, you can find the flaws they have, and compare them to the ideal people in the second category. But maybe I’m wrong, maybe there really are a ton of Marxists out there that figured out the secret to having a perfectly consistent anti-authoritarian ideology that is still distinct from anarchism. If you could let me know who they are, that’d be awesome.
We live in a dictatorship of capital, you’re not going to be able to get consent from capitalists to overthrow them.
If you’re intersted in revolutionary change you’re going to be authoritarian to someone. The capitalists not going to be on board for getting their property redistributed.
If you’re not interested in revolution you’re the compatible left
Are you seriously conflating communism with authoritarianism?
It’s like you guys went through the red scare and instead of figuring it was a stupid insane witch hunt without any real foundation, decided that the republican definition of “communism = evil” was actually true, but you wanted in anyway. It’s ridiculous.
I remain at the same place, yet to understand how one can be a communist and not authoritarian. And I feel like you’re failing to interrogate whether your concept of authoritarianism is being used with any amount of consistency or if it’s just a club you wield against people who have positions you disagree with for other reasons.
I remain at the same place, yet to understand how one can be a communist and not authoritarian.
I think you maybe need to read a book then. Try starting with “The Communist Manifesto”
Will do!
When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.
In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
Another fun quote, though not from the manifesto:
We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
OK, so maybe you don’t know what “authoritarian” means? Because,
In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
Is not it.
Edit: A period of time where the proletariat organizes power to eliminate the bourgeoisie in order to get rid of those previous class divides, is not authoritarianism.
It’s such an irony to me that people who call us “tankies” and say that we are somehow caricatures of communists, always make such caricatures out of themselves. Like, instead of engaging with any of FunkyStuff’s very reasonable, calmly stated questions, you go off about how we (“tankies”) just decided to be evil, and calling us ridiculous while behaving in such a ridiculous, blatantly and needlessly antagonistic way yourself. It’s over the top.
Paraphrasing:
FunkyStuff: asks a calm, concise series of questions that are meant to help clarify the issue.
lunnrais: “See?! Look how frothing these evil, ridiculous lunatic tankies are!!”And this after correctly recognizing that the red scare was a terrible witch hunt? But it was people like us, people who believe what we believe, that were the “witches” of that particular persecution. We are simply what most communists in the world look like, we believe what most communists in the world believe, people who have very clear and consistent views. But instead of honestly trying to engage or actually understand why “tankies” believe the things they do, you just smear us with lies and pretend that the position of Marxist-Leninist communists is just some bananas, made-up-on-the-fly, contrarian position, rather than one with deep foundations that have been developed over decades of intense thought and practice including by people fighting in the trenches for their own and others liberation. To you, were the Black Panthers “tankies”? Do you know about their mutual support of and with North Korea, or did they just decide to be “evil” to pwn the libs? Was Che Guevara a “tankie”? Is Michael Parenti? Were they all just ridiculous contrarians who liked the picture that reactionaries (“republicans”) painted of them?
edit: removing duplicate comment.
Visit ML before any major Western election and browse by Local (its default) and you will easily see: ML calls for the literal and actual fall of all Western civilization including the deaths of most to nearly all peoples therein.
Whereas LW does not want that, go figure. 🤷♀️
Something something bOtH sIdEs SaMe.
Still coming up to speed on the terminology here, but labels aside, I would hope we can all agree on the fact that society should work for the people first. A society that works for corporations and the rich first (I’d argue that most developed nations show advanced stages of this, regardless of capitalist alignment) will decay internally, like a cancer. I think we’ve seen the global decline of society working for their members since the mid 1900’s.
This has resulted in a broad rightward swing in the US, and to a slightly lesser degree abroad. People feel like they’ve been taken advantage of. And they have been, but mostly by the very rich, and it’s getting exponentially worse by the day.
Argue nuance if you feel so inclined. But my point is: the more that we’re divided by these labels is to our detriment. And when I say “we”, I mean “not the ownership class.”
Do you work? Do you draft a paycheck anywhere on earth? Then you’re getting fucked, because those who don’t draft a paycheck to live basically don’t pay anything to partake in society. We pay for them. We truly live in a welfare state, but it’s not the poor that are the recipients but the rich.
Tankie or not. Western or Eastern. We’re all manipulated into serving the will of the powerful, and constantly at odds with one another when our plight is similar. We all don’t want to get fucked. But the more we’re divided, the easier it is to conquer us.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
You are talking theory.
Now, in practice invite the MAGA over to your side, and see what happens.
Good luck!
Translation: consent needs to matter. Tankies do not care about your consent. They want to advance the cycle through the destruction phase to get to the other side that is all magical rainbows and fairy dust - just exactly like Russia, China, and North Korea are so well-known for, obviously.
And they will not let anything get in the way of achieving their goals. Not even facts.
Please do not allow yourself to become used like a tool by the oligarchy. Like both the (leftist) tankies and the (rightist) MAGAs have. They share in common a love for authoritarianism - and guess who gets to be at the top there? Hint: it ain’t us!
Tankies want me and everyone that I have ever known or even met to literally die.
Something something bOtH sIdEs SaMe.
Tankies want me and everyone that I have ever known or even met to literally die.
Unless you’re Jeffery Epstein I think the odds of that are low.
Openstars attacking straw communists and positions nobody holds again. The living embodiment of brevity being the soul of wit.
The living embodiment of brevity being the soul of wit.
Yeah, I’m thinking you don’t know what that saying means.
Why do you say that?
.ml users are also just immature weirdos. most of my harassing comments calling me insults come from .ml users.
they don’t discuss and they don’t read. they just shout and quote russian/chinese state propaganda about how people living in those countries are so wealthy and liberated and so much better than americans or europeans. and if you do cite sources, they tell you that those are american propaganda and all lies and ONLY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS TELLING THE TRUTH.
oh, and the .ml opening talk about the power of violence and their violent fantasies of killing everyone who has a modicum of economic security and all claim to be the poorest of the poor, which I highly doubt.
I was a communist when I was 15, but even back then I was into the utopia part, not the mass murder fantasy part.
they tell you that those are american propaganda and all lies and ONLY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS TELLING THE TRUTH
It’s better than that: you can back them into a position that runs directly counter to official CCP policy and they’ll claim that it’s a “western agitprop translation” from the original language. Support it with translation and testimonials from actual Chinese citizens and those get dismissed because they’re impure enough to speak a dirty western language.
Some fun ice breakers for any ML post:
- Why is it illegal to form a union in China?
- Why does the PRC constitution guarantee freedom of the press but journalists require a liscense? [Bonus: how can you quantify a requirement like “journalist ethics”?]
- Why is the number of executions in China a state secret?
Why is it illegal to form a union in China?
It isn’t, it just must be a part of the All-China Federation of Trade Unions to ensure that no “independent unions” can be wielded by the west or by capitalists to undermine socialism.
Why does the PRC constitution guarantee freedom of the press but journalists require a liscense? [Bonus: how can you quantify a requirement like “journalist ethics”?]
To ensure journalists aren’t spreading western disinformation to de-legitimize the state and foment instability, as has happened time and time again in other countries.
Why is the number of executions in China a state secret?
For similar reasons as the prior two.
they don’t discuss and they don’t read. they just shout and quote russian/chinese state propaganda
I do not understand how you can’t see the irony here.
We actually do read and discuss theory quite a lot, both online and when we are at party meetings (though many times the meetings are for organizing things like protests, or other matters). What you may be noticing is that we don’t tend to “quote farm,” ie find a relevant quote from a Marxist theorist, and use that as an argument. It’s unconvincing and comes across as book worship.
This creates a 2-sided problem: either we worship theory, or we don’t read it at all, in the eyes of liberals. It’s a perfect, thought-terminating bubble where there’s a great excuse ready-made to not take communists seriously, either we don’t know what we are talking about, or we are detached from reality. It’s simply impossible for us to not rely on quote farming while actually knowing what we are talking about. Same with “state propaganda.”
I was a communist when I was 15, but even back then I was into the utopia part, not the mass murder fantasy part.
This more speaks to yourself not knowing what communism is, though. Marx and Engels have railed against utopianism, and were proponents of scientific socialism. Same with the idea of a mass murder fantasy.
Actual communists here are on Threadiverse seem quite emotionally capable and are among the more pleasant to chat with. Examples there include slrpnk.net. I used to also say db0 though there always seems pushback nowadays whenever I include it, but I can’t get anyone to give me a solid answer as to why besides unsubstantiated accusations that even on their face looks like pure BS to me. So I guess I’ll keep saying it, just noting that it is a controversial point.:-)
Hexbears on the other hand are trolls, pure and simple, with zero regard for anything other than “the dunk” process of pwning someone - or rather, appearing to, from their own extremely childish POV.
Lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml then are the leftist MAGAs, believing in alternative facts rather than living in reality. e.g. most claim that they would move to the likes of North Korea in a heartbeat, except, you know… I guess they took an arrow to the knee or some such. 🤪
I am so glad that I can block people from an entire instance. If I could, I would make an exception to the devs Nutomic and Dessalines out of respect for having offered the Lemmy sourcecode as FOSS, but other than that, I have not missed a single interaction with anyone on Lemmy.ml since I have done so, every time I’ve checked to see what I might be missing. They are the most batshit insane comments across the entirety of the Threadiverse, after Hexbear obviously.
“the only communists who are actual communists are the ones who cater to my sensibilities as a liberal”
The only person spewing alternative facts is you, you can’t seem to regurgitate a post without making up bullshit.
Now that you’re a grown up who can speak for yourself, what is the Hannibal Directive?
ML calls for the literal and actual fall of all Western civilization
for the record when people say ‘Death to America’ it’s wishing an end to the American government and its settler-colonial state apparatus.
Concern about the ‘fall of Western civilization’ is more often than not a dog whistle signalling reactionary politics.
also this isn’t limited to election seasons, death to america
Death to America
I dunno man, all other things aside (I have no opinion on specific Lemmy instances at all), when you’re quoting Osama Bin Laden as part of your own beliefs or opinion, that’s probably not cool beans, you know?
Then consider my (I assume) original: Burn the Burgerreich
Unless it’s not the wording, but the messege that is problematic to you. But no respectable person would out of their own will be a dog of hitlerikkkan empire
This is some “Hitler was a vegetarian” level shit, but the tribalistic hogs here will upvote it anyway
Osama Bin Laden and I happen to have the same position that the end of the USA as a political entity would be a positive thing. I probably also agree with him that breathing and having meals is necessary for survival.
Are either of those propositions made less true by virtue of Osama also believing them?
I dunno man. You have a dog? Hitler had a dog…
Death to America is a saying that goes back much further than Bin Laden, and there have been many good reasons for many people to say it. I’m sure many of the people indigenous to the land (that wasn’t “America” to them) had a probably rather similar phrase and said it probably rather often as that entity commenced with their genocide. And since that time, it’s not as if there hasn’t been a lack of good reasons to call for the destruction of the settler-colonial project responsible for the worst imperialist cruelties since the British Empire (the immediate ancestor). But you might consider questioning why you seem to only associate the phrase with that one particular person.
I use she/her in case it doesn’t show up in your app.
This isn’t quoting osama bin laden, it’s an Iranian slogan/expression.
America as a settler-colonial state is a world-historic evil, death to America
Visit .world before any major Western election and browse by Local (its default) and you will easily see: .world will sell out as many Palestinians as it takes to buy political time in hopes of a blue wave that is definitely going fix everything and bring America™ back to its wholesome big chungus status.
Whereas ML does not want to carry out genocide to buy time for pointless political waffling, go figure.
I really do love the tagging feature for the boost app, all I see is green tankie tabs everywhere when you guys show up.
Oh hey, I remember you. You’re the one who was equating anti-capitalism with being tankie.
https://lemmy.world/comment/21783242
Not beating the toothless lib allegations…
Lol yea I’m the toothless one…the guy who’s probably been tagged by a lot of people here for being staunchly pro2a and advocating for my LGBTQ+ people to get trained and armed…yea
for being staunchly pro2a
Off topic, but there’s a LiberalGunOwners community if you weren’t aware. Not as active as it could, but still
Yea I’m subscribed to it.
Did you vote for Kamala or did you allow Trump to take power?
Will you be voting for Ted Cruz, or will you allow Mecha Hitler to take power?
Your political narcissism is incurable. Enjoy fucking people over for your feels.
Your daily reminder that BlueMAGA liberals don’t consider Palestinians to be people
he said, stepping over the bodies of 500,000 children
