- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
Toyota, Progressive Insurance, and a data analytics firm are now being accused of collecting detailed personal driving information without proper consent
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How would the Toyota CEO not know about this? Weird. /s
my country recently got a new behavioral car insurer. their very first move? running brainwashing 0.5 second ads on popular TV channels, that just flashes thrir logo quickly, and has just enough time to announce the name of the company. I’m not exaggerating. absolute parasite scumbags, every one of them must burn.
I don’t want to drive traffic to their site, but this one is it: https://web.archive.org/web/20260000000000*/https://drivello.hu/
stear clear from them, they have shown they are here for deception money, zero good intentions.
Yeah, I’m fucking done with cars. Can’t afford em anyway.
Next: Insurance premiums rise if you cannot be tracked and verified to be a safe driver.
In a sense that already exists, as I’m pretty sure there are extra plan benefits if you opt-in to more surveillance.
My Farmer’s agent offered a discount, I forgot how much, maybe 15% to use their app and location services. It was a few years back, I told them to get stuffed.
These behaviors will only get worse, unless we change the system. We just need to help each other understand that, and then execute it!
My car is 26 years old, truck is 30… No internet connectivity there, and yet my rates going up steadily every year with nothing on my driving record. 🙄
This is calculated by the odds of your car breaking(higher as the car ages/parts become more expensive), the chances you are going to get into an accident (go higher as you age up after 30 something), and the chances another driver will crash into you without your fault(this saw a large increase after COVID, people just started driving worse for some reason I don’t know). All of this means that you will pay more for insurance and it 100% isn’t your fault.
They charge you extra since they can’t sell your data.
Yup. Older cars costing more to insure is yet another poor tax.
We’re all collectively paying global insurance for the devastating climate change>> bushfire, flooding, hurricanes, extreme weather.
Honestly if a car has any form of internet connectivity built in, it should raise so many red flags before you even sit down to talk financing.
Good luck finding a modern car that doesn’t, I just yank out the power to the modem
I wouldn’t mind doing this on my vehicle. Elaborate?
Searching for your car model + ‘disable modem’, ‘remove cellular’, ‘physically remove 5g’, etc. Will often come up with guides for specific vehicles.
In my car, it’s just a separate board you can just unplug.
There might be a dedicated fuse, also. If so, that would be the easiest solution
my rates do seem high. I had a wreck a few years back but it was a dented door and fixed just fine. I work from home so I dont drive all that much, and the car is cheap. But it does have telemetry. I wonder if I should just bridge a resistor across the onstar antenna terminals
Casually reading, you could put a 50ohm or larger resistor there.
You will have a better result removing/disabling the module completely. There are several searchable tutorials based on the vehicle module.
My '24 Civic has no connectivity but bluetooth. I don’t know about the 25s.
So, OnStar, for decades now, has had cellular activity whether you were paying for it or not. They just used to be careful about not selling data. But even if the user didn’t pay and the manufacturer didn’t sell, those models are trackable by ISP.
Sounds logical.
which part sounds logical?
That Onstar probably has decades of telemetry they’ve sold.
They definitely have. You have to jump through hoops to request and delete your data from some data broker. I had to do this, it was a massive report with no context and arbitrary statements like “hard braking” and “excessive acceleration”. They sell the data to brokers who sell out to insurance companies to raise your rates based on these arbitrary reports.
It’s all so disgusting.
What amazes me is how many people not only willingly giving up their privacy without any understand of what it means to do so or the implications of it, but also so many have a defense of ‘if you are in public you have no right or expectation of privacy at all’.
This is bullshit. While you have a reduced expectation of privacy by virtue of being in public, the fact that your movements are alp documented so completely either by private or public entities without warrants, your face and expressions and dress scanned, and even videos you watch on your phone based on some flock cameras I have seen is an outrage.
People have a right to sometimes just go out and disappear for a while. I used to do it all the damn as a teenager and very young adult. I didnt run away from home or skip school, but I needed genuine alone time to think and let my mind and body feel free for a moment and give myself a minor mental reset. This is impossible if I am on camera all the damn time. The last thing I want is to take a walk through some artsy parts of town or a park and then get ads on ‘want to escape? Here are some nice vacation spots to go to’, or get ads on shit just because I did some window shopping or in-store browsing.
And then there is this shit. How all that spying affects you financially and maybe even professionally as AI now is reviewing CVs and you better damn well believe that they will be integrating all information on you if you apply anywhere.
And for the ‘this prevents crime’ shit no it does not. Crime resolution rates have been dropping throughout even the wealthiest most surveillance heavy countries. A study from around 20 years ago in the UK showed thay the places with the most cameras don’t have less crime or more solved crimes than those with less cameras. More funding for police and more police tools have ironically lead to a massive reduction in murder rate resolution in the US and elsewhere. Which is surprising snd terrifying… because just how many innocent people have been put in prison in the past without anyone knowing?
It is entirely about social control. Have you ever wondered why protests seem to be less effective and there aren’t that many revolutions or successful coups as there were last century? That is why. (And yes I am aware they still happen, but they are much harder to pull off)
The best example I’ve heard is, if I wait outside your house and follow you around everywhere you go, every single time you leave the house, even though you’re “in public,” that’s still a crime and it’s called “stalking.”
Even searching for someone obsessively online and being a little TOO interested in them online is cyberstalking.
The line there is different than in off-line settings, but it does exist. Someone who is a fan of an entertainer and likes all of their online posts is one thing, but a person who has plans that involve harassment is something else.
Precisely right. We should press charges against all the big tech companies for stalking us.
Spyware in our cars? This is unacceptable.
YEAR OF THE LINUX CAR
2036 maybe
There’s probably already 10-15 linux computers in your car.
Teslas run on the linux kernel lol…
fuck, almost everything does
But can I choose the distro?
i use carch btw
My car drives Arch, by the way.
Like Jackie Welles rides an Arch in CP2077? Count me in!
The infotainment system probably runs Yocto Linux, so it is already the year of Linux card
But is the system libre enough to make it year of the linux car
Because Android phones (linux kernel fork libre per gpl obligation, rest of os proprietary and evil) do not constitute the year of the Linux phone
Time to make data sharing illegal. If it is technically needed, the industry needs to have a written contract with the user, which describes in detail which data is shared. It must be a separate contract from anything else, and one each for each industry partner.
“T&Cs update : please agree to 80 pages of impenetrable legal jargon before you can continue to use your vehicle”
That’s why I say it must be a written, separate contract. And not signing it must be without consequences regarding other contractual obligations.
Notarized. The agreements need to be notarized.
And you have to be able to cancel it at any time.
Why
Because the seriousness of this contract should require proof that you agreed to it
A little click box is fine for something that doesn’t matter, but for lifetime real time surveillance, that’s important enough that you should have a serious contract with proof that you actually signed it
I feel like this was something that needed to be stopped decades ago but now it’s just not possible to do this. You can’t wait until it’s this big then start thinking how to change it
The other option is to look at the possible outcomes and in this case the direction we are on is unacceptable.
Better to start now because it gets costlier by the minute to delay.
That which is unsustainable tends not to be sustained.
it is technically needed, the industry needs to have a written contract with the user, which describes in detail which data is shared. It must be a separate contract from anything else, and one each for each industry partner.
That’s the Terms and Conditions that nobody reads.
I’m not talking about a “one click for everything”. I’m talking about a separate, written contract that can be cancelled at any time, without cause for any other obligation.
The t&c are not a separate contract, though. Its a “take it or leave it” signing here gets you the car and the agreement to be spied upon.
I read them all now with Chatgpt. Just fed it in and summarize
Hahaha welcome to the eu
In the owner’s manual, it says you consent to data collection by driving the car and if you don’t consent, you should return the car to the nearest dealer.
I’ll bet if you tried it the dealer would refuse to take it back.
I’d like to be a fly on the wall in that court case.
Fuck them and the horse they rode on. Stuff like that needs to be made illegal.
There won’t just be an “AI” bubble burst if this surveillance tech bros crap goes on for too much longer. Everyone wants to be an overlord. No one just wants to make a reasonable healthy profit anymore.
Yes they do. The issue is that people won’t really tell each other about products and business that are doing that. They won’t boycott the bad shit, either. That goes for everyone… BMW, IBM, and BOSS are still around and that’s the tip of the list.
In order to get seen you got to pay those people that want to be an overlord.
So you see the issue.
It’s because high constant profits were never sustainable. Perpetually maximizing GDP in the short term was never a good idea to begin with. But that’s the macroeconomic policy.
We’ve been preventing all forest fires at all costs and guess what - there’s still gonna be a big forest fire.
Another reminder why I chose to own a bicycle.
I used to dream to have a car, but the more I grew up, the more I realize just how fucking hard it is to have one, especially paperwork and driving demands more situational awareness, of not just the space around the car but also other vehicles on the road.
Not an option for many of us. Even in the city, where I’ve gotten around on bicycle for years and years with no car before, it was a hostile environment, and motorists hate bicyclists with a passion. I didn’t ride in the street either like in the lane holding up traffic either. But many would go out of their way to hit you, including police. I was too quick for them though.
As we learned in Minnesota, vaguely gesturing your car in someone’s direction is grounds for summary execution without investigation. Things are different for bicyclists now.
You pointed that bike at that agent. Clearly you are an antifa death squad. Or I’m sorry three star antifa general involved in terror plots on american greatness, likely out of your freedom hatred. Something something transexuals woke radical left you had it coming! /s
This is such a bad precedent because it’s on video, there is no question as to the truth of the matter. The agent engineered the situation, used his phone hand to touch the car as it was moving to make it appear like he was hit, and they cynically used that to claim so, despite frame by frame analysis that gives lie to all of their story.
Their cheerleaders supporting this, pretending to believe the lie, or god forbid believing it, because they think they don’t like the executed, are fools. Federal agents should not be summarily executing anyone on the street without cause then slandering their victims to justify it afterwards. That is something everyone agreed on not long ago. A good share of conservatives might still agree, but just believe the execution was self defense, but too many don’t, and relish the others getting targeted as if they will forever remain safe from being labelled an other. As if when they achieve absolute power they won’t shrink the old boy clubs.
I rode my bike in the a smaller city for nearly a decade regularly just fine. The one time I was hit by a car, luckily barely, I was on foot.
To me, here at least, when I left the small city,that’s where it gets wild. When the place has no pedestrians, and it’s all cars only, with really limited side walks. Those are the scary places to ride.
Yeah in the country it’s a different beast entirely. Riding on the shoulder of highways and county roads. I do the left side so I can see the cars coming at me and get out of the way. Going with traffic on the shoulder is madness and trusting everyone to see you and not hit you, yet half the population thinks that’s the way it should be done.
But good luck getting anywhere in the country right now on a bike. There are snowbanks piled up, little shoulder is left off of main highways, you would have to ride in the road, switching back and forth left to right to avoid incoming cars, or stop and pull yourself into the snowbank. It’s just not possible for me here. Half the year it’s just not possible in much of the north.
I’ve always been more comfortable riding with traffic, and I don’t understand how it feels safer going opposite. But I’m not a rule enforcer, do what’s best for you. Anywhere without common walkers/public transport too. Its not just like, “the country”. Suburbs and strip malls.
I’ve also ridden in winter, in New England. It’s baby thought thinking you can’t. No bad weather, just bad dress, and you warm up quick.
I’m saying on the shoulder of a highway, not in the lane. Riding on the right hand side means constantly looking back over your shoulder, and trusting cars to have seen you and not decided to bust onto the shoulder. It’s madness, and it’s a misunderstanding that leads some people to think you are supposed to, experts have made it clear it’s safer to see traffic coming at you in such situations so you can get out of the way.
And ha, no, you can’t ride your bike where I am right now as I explained. There is no shoulder, you are in the lane, lanes covered in packed down snow. Baby thinking is a rather insulting way to respond to a situation you clearly do not understand. Riding in the lane with cars going 55 mph or faster on ice and snow cannot be done here right now, snowplows leave 4 or a 5 feet of snowbank off the road, something someone from new england should know, city boy.
I got a laugh out of that “baby thought” jab. I’ve lived where it wasn’t safe to walk by the roads during winter, much less cycle there. With no bike lane or even a road shoulder to speak of and a foot or more of snow, you end up with two choices: cycle in a snow bank or hope traffic isn’t coming when you end up horizontal in the road.
So do nothing. Don’t fight for better infrastructures, just stay car centric. I love paying thousands of dollars a year to get to work/shops/friends. Wah wah.
I’ve ridden these roads in winter. I’ve done it from necessity. Yeah it’s scary at first. No, not all places it’s possible, yes, it could be done more if not for your preference for comfort. Wahhh “I can’t and nothing can change this”. Fucking hell. I’m a down vote queen today eh? Y’all need to watch some “just not bikes” and maybe help change perceptions.
Or stay in your comfy car. I don’t care. I’m literally in the position where I can’t get a job because I don’t have a car, or a bike, or public transport, and a kid with mad appointments right now. And I’m extra spicy about it. I miss being free on my bike and marking open availability on job apps. I’m spicy okay? Down vote away. I uses to ride 7 miles in winter, snow, sleet, ice, to be at work for 6 am. Then seven miles home, 6 days a week. Two years. It can be done. Its not fun no, but its not like, the most difficult thing either. Y’all just used to comfort. I’m used to poverty. It’s fucking fine.
deleted by creator
Shut the fuck up.
Thanks.
Love you :*
I saw someone riding a bike the other day on the road and feared for his safety.
I couldn’t do that to my ancestors
When do companies ask for consent? Look at Google and incognito mode. Look at 23&me, I can go on. And nobody sees anything done about it. We are numbers. Not people. That’s our world
Funny that 23andMe is the Google founders wife’s company.
They ask for consent in the terms and conditions, you know, that long annoying text that no one really reads when signing up for stuff.
That is where they put the consent.
Seen the third party message on the Wirecutter comments section?
“If you comment on these socks we’re recommending YOUR DATA WILL BE SOLD!!!”
Incredible and actually good guy vendor (Disqus) in a way for not hiding it unless it was their lawyers’ doing :)
It’s not real consent if you’re forced to agree to use the product or if the terms allow the company to alter the terms.
Further, like, as a third party I can’t really consent. Say I’m out on a walk and I pass a Tesla, or that Tesla drives by me. It has a bunch of cameras, it’s recording a bunch of shit. I as a passerby have no ability to consent or decline being recorded just going about my business.
I fucking hate that. Every time I see a modern car I’m grossed out because I feel like I’m being watched.
And it’s so ubiquitous that the only way to avoid them altogether is to become Amish.
Good luck never agreeing to binding arbitration. And even if you do get out of it, good luck ever holding them accountable in a class action. You might be able to file a class action, but no one can join you.
The thing about 23&Me is that they’re collecting data not just on the people who signed up for the service - the ones who actually skipped and accepted the T&Cs - but their family members as well.
So are Facebook and WhatsApp. If you’ve never used either of them they definitely know who you know and have a data entry with connections ready for you to claim if you do sign up to them.
Is it consent if it is forced?
No one is forcing you to use their services
If you need a service and every competing service has the same practice, then yes they are.
Oh, I agree, I just meant it as that is how they see it
You must not be from earth friend.
If you keep reading the thread, you’ll see that I made the post to show the thought process of companies doing this.
That’s unchecked capitalism
They ask for consent when they operate in the European Union
And that toothpaste is not getting put back in the tube.
Now That is a powerful cat.
My new car had a whole Wikipedia worth of terms and conditions in the screen that had to accept before turning on for the first time.
There was no alternative other than “accept” or “leave the car at the dealership and pay the most expensive parking in the world forever”.
The fact that they can sell you a car without having to give you all of the terms and conditions is kinda nuts. Imagine if you went to buy a house and they just went “Nuh uh, pay first, we give you all the HOA rules and city ordinance laws you have to follow afterwards. What is in them? It’s a mYsTeRy!”.
Little look at Julian Assange. Look at North Korea. Look at porn. Look at open source encryption. Look at the tor network. Look at mesh wifi. Look at private dns. Look at ungoogled chromium or librewolf. Look at webgl. Look at a little porn again. Look at the stars for a while. Look at signal. Smoke a cigarette and finally look at yourself
We’re sorry!
Maybe it’s time to create some rules about data brokering? It’s not really about tracking and consent, it’s about who can sell what data about whom to what parties.
It’s become an enormous business, it deals with you and I, it delights in living in the shadows, and it is almost completely unregulated. I don’t really care if Toyota records my data, I care that it’s allowed to sell it or share it.
I think a reasonable first step would be that all data about a specific person belongs to that person and nobody else. We have rules about photos, we need to expand them to data brokering, because the problem is the same: if you can be identified and placed, you are at risk.
When approaching this proposition, remember that there will be a lot of push back that might sound sincere but remember that there are a lot of people in the data mining business and they will definitely not be arguing in good faith.
You can’t even assume they’ll be people at this point.
Maybe we can just learn to disable the parts of the vehicle that spy on us. It’s actually a federal felony to alter programming on products like this that we own. But maybe a surgically placed electromagnet or cut wire could do the trick?
Because government will not be fixing anything for the better. This is the best the government will be for the forseeable future.
But think of the poor shareholders and their yearly revenue growth being slowed down. Don’t be selfish bro.
/s
Yeah i agree with most of what you said. I don’t have massive issues with companies tracking and recording data. By default they should only be allowed to use that data themselves (which can get a bit murky when the company in question is that of a conglomerate) and you should have to explicitly allow the sharing of data to third parties that is separate to standard TOC’s.
GDPR tried to solve this but it kind of made a lot of the options available to the user a bit of a mess and overwhelming because there’s not much regulation about what can be done with data (somewhat - there actually are limitations but it’s not very well enforced), just that the user has to say they agree. And that’s not even thinking about how the banners and pop ups are obtrusive as fuck.
I’m not smart enough to know what the actual solution should be other than I know it needs to be better than it is now.
Maybe it’s already called GDPR?
The same GDPR that allows every website or app to share your data with their 816 partners, as long as they claim they have a ‘legitimate interest’?
The Mozilla foundation did a great report on cars & privacy.
I bought a new dishwasher and that wants to be connected to the internet “to let me know when it’s finished”.
Matter over Thread is what you want. It means it can work locally with anything. You do need a Thread controller (called a “thread border router”), but most people already have one. Google Home, Alexa, or Apple things all do it.
Ikea is starting to move over to this stuff. Just be aware that they’re also trying to get rid of the old tech still.
Why though? Why does he want a networked dishwasher at all? There’s no benefit or reason for that in the first place
I really hate those guys, you know. They really are the creeps of the cosmos, buzzing around the celestial infinite with their junky little machines that never work properly or, when they do, perform functions that no sane man would require of them and,’ he added savagely, ‘go beep to tell you when they’ve done it!’
Ford Prefect
“So long & thanks for all the fish” Douglas AdamsDouglas Adams, apparently ever prescient, was on top of this long before the rest of us. This is from The Long Dark Tea-Time Of The Soul, which I will remind you was published in 1988 and in the foreword says it was typeset on a Macintosh II:
There was a pay phone in one of the dark corners where waiters slouched moodily at one another. Dirk threaded his way through them, wondering whom it was they reminded him of, and eventually deciding it was the small crowd of naked men standing around behind the Holy Family in Michelangelo’s picture of the same name, for no more apparent reason than Michelangelo rather liked them.
He telephoned an acquaintance of his called Nobby Paxton, or so he claimed, who worked the darker side of the domestic appliance supply business. Dirk came straight to the point.
“Dobby, I deed a fridge.” (At this point in the book, Dirk has recently been punched in the face and is talking funny due to a broken nose.)
“Dirk, I been saving one against the day you’d ask me.”
Dirk found this highly unlikely.
“Only I wand a good fridge, you thee, Dobby.”
“This is the best, Dirk. Japanese. Microprocessor-controlled.”
“What would a microprothehtor be doing in a fridge, Dobby?”
“Keeping itself cool, Dirk. I’ll get the lads to bring it round right away. I need to get it off the premises pretty sharpish for reasons I won’t trouble you with.”
“I apprethiade thid, Dobby,” said Dirk. “Problem id, I’m not home at preddent.”
“Gaining access to houses in the absence of their owners is only one of the panoply of skills with which my lads are blessed. Let me know if you find anything missing afterwards, by the way.”
Love Hitchhikers, but I’m not sure that replacing annoying machine beeps with annoying mobile notifications is the improvement you’re suggesting :p
Some people would like the feature where they are notified that the job is finished but don’t want to allow it to connect to the manufacturer. That would be possible if you could get one that uses Thread over Matter.
Most people either don’t care about the feature or don’t care about their privacy so it’s a real niche market.
My 15 year old dishwasher makes a happy little jingle when it’s done to let me know it’s finished. Alternatively, I can just look at it the next time I’m in the kitchen and see if it’s done. I can’t think of any scenario where I am so pressed for time that I must be notified the second my dishwasher is done, but also be far enough away that I don’t hear it’s pretty loud jingle. All so I can… What? Do another load of dishes? Who would ever need that?
I don’t need it either but the home automation guys often want to do things that I don’t understand and detecting when an appliance has finished its job is one of them.
Yeah but it seems clear from @MonsterMonster@lemmy.world’s comment that they also think this is frivolity, so the unrelated niche market is a moot point in this case.
My new air purifier wants to connect to my wifi network. No thanks, I’m good.
