Hello, Im kind of new here and trying to get used to Lemmy and I was wondering about if this is true since I am considering donating on this site to support alternative projects but wanted to hear other users before doing so. That being said, what have been your experiences?
In some cases yes, in others, no. It really depends on the community and instance.
Lemmy has the potential to facilitate free speech discussions, but unfortunately a lot of its users actively suppress the idea because they like censoring their opposition.
Says the two day old account…
I was using Lemmy And am now on piefed and I can say that Lemmy feels more free from reddit. I find my stuff getting removed less and if it did, the mods would have actual reasons for it rather than reddit mods which removed stuff because they felt like it. There’s still the mob mentality with down votes and people still mass down vote things they don’t like though
I would say, Lemmy (or the Fediverse in general is just like real life. You can say anything you want, but don’t expect anyone to invite you to their party or talk to you, if you are being an jerk.
Meaning, that noone can ban you from Lemmy for anything you say. But they certainly can ban you from their own instance and / or not federate with an instance, you are on if they don’t like what you say.
Also, as a general word of advice, just be a decent, nice person and you’ll probably be fine. Online or offline. A major idea of the fediverse is to imagine and be part of a better world and if we engage with each other respectfully, everyone is better off.
I’d say yes, reddit is overmoderated
“Freedom of speech” is such a fraught concept. Define your terms.
This place has moderation…but it’s not the same as Reddit with their broad autoban system that the sub moderators tend to exploit. It depends on what you say.
I’m pretty new…but it’s apples and oranges. You’re a lot less likely to be baited into disingenuous arguments designed to make you angry to maximize engagement, here. People tend to post and comment in earnest.
freedom of speech means the government can’t arrest you for speaking up. Neither lemmy nor reddit are the government, so freedom of speech does not apply.
Yeah, you’re right (and smart.)
There is no concept of freedom of speech if not formalized from a state.
Which word or phrase do you suggest we should use instead for the idea of freedom of speech applied on a private level? Where in this case the instance admin takes on the role of regulating what can or can’t be communicated on their instance.
Freedom from censorship.
Which doesn’t apply to Lemmy either, different instances just censor different trains of thought.
Honestly, I might start saying that just to stop that “what is freedom of speech” sycophants from jerking each other off.
People can just as easily say that only the government can censor you and that private corporations and individuals are free to not allow you to say things they don’t want you to.
Absolutely.
It’s not even a debate.
My 13 year old Reddit account was perma-banned without warning for saying “PUNCH A NAZI”. Let’s test that out here.
PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI PUNCH A NAZI
And that was just my first of probably 30-40 Reddit accounts before I finally said fuck it and came here. I’m not some asshole purposefully posting asshole shit I know I’m going to get banned for. Reddit is just that pathetic.
It’s just that I have zero patience for dipshits posting misinformation (as should we all) and I’m not afraid to let them know it. Lemmy gives me that liberty. Thanks Lemmy!!!
Uhh something more relevant here would be PUNCH A COMMIE!
RUSSIA/CHINA PUNCH
You are now dogpiled on and banned from Lemmy.ml and Hexbear
Step on an eggshell about gender identity that rubs someone the wrong way
You are vilified and immediately banned from lemmy.blahaj.zone
Let’s be real, your example only works because the mods and admins agree that we should punch nazis.
The big difference is that while you can be banned from one instance, you can still use the rest of Lemmy.
You’re free to say what you want, but individual instances can decide whether they want to platform you. I prefer this over reddit-wide bullshit bans.
You’re free to say what you want
But that’s my point, you’re not free to say whatever you want. Even holding a different opinion can draw the wrong attention in the worst ways. The people who dogpile, vilify, and twist your words see no consequences, and only you end up paying by being excluded from the bigger communities for sticking to your words. You will get banned, and your comments will be scrubbed from the modlog.
What you’re saying only works if you’re ok with dealing in smaller communities with less traffic, which is a major complaint seeing as how Lemmy is already a small social media site, or you’re willing to shell out the money to spin up your own instance, which isn’t viable for the people who would love to do that if only money wasn’t a limitation.
What I’m saying is that regardless of how one cuts it, speech isn’t free here. It’s heavily punished and often enforced.
My point is this: SPEECH IS NEVER FREE. Not in the way you mean, i.e. without consequences. Find me one place in the entire world where you can say whatever you want without any consequences. I’ll wait.
In your daily life you can also say what you want. People might get pissed at you, refuse to talk to you, break off friendships, get you fired from your job if you go too far, whatever. That’s just life. What you say and do has consequences. Even online. Even at Lemmy.
Freedom of speech means your government won’t arrest you and lock you up for your opinions, but any other consequences in your social circle, for example, are just that. When you’re an asshole, people will think you’re an asshole. Sounds normal to me. And if you’re surrounded by assholes, they will act like assholes no matter what you say. If an instance has values so diametrically opposed to yours that they end up banning you, then good riddance, no? Edit: E.g. getting thrown out of a Nazi bar is no huge loss.
Sorry, I meant to say that speech isn’t as free as people are saying in this thread. We have people essentially screaming “punch a nazi” as if it’s a controversial opinion here, when there are other milder opinions that would create some serious outrage and get you banned on a whim.
I think it’s universally understood that there are consequences to what you say, and even how you say it, and when. I think that’s part of my point. I’m not here to argue for absolute free speech. I don’t believe in that.
I’m merely pointing out that the Fediverse as a whole is a lot more policed than people say. It doesn’t take much to create animosity.
If an instance has values so diametrically opposed to yours that they end up banning you, then good riddance, no? Edit: E.g. getting thrown out of a Nazi bar is no huge loss.
I don’t think that’s how it works. You can very much agree with a community the overwhelming majority of the time while getting along fine, and still create some friction by touching specific topics. At least, that’s been my experience in general everywhere, both online and IRL.
Oh absolutely. You can’t agree with someone 100% of the time. Or well, you can, but it’s rare. ;)
You’re obviously right, there is no absolute free speech and there shouldn’t be, imo. I see Lemmy a bit in the same way I see my real life. Everyone has rules in their own house and if you want to be invited in, you’ll have to live by them. If you don’t want to do that, that’s fine, but you can’t expect them to keep inviting you - and you’re welcome to go to another party where another group of people might not be invited.
Does this mean there are instances where I won’t be welcome? Sure. But it also means there are instances where I won’t be forced to see/read things I really don’t want to see. I can’t speak for anyone else, of course, but in my experience it’s perfectly possible (with few exceptions) for me to say what I want, as long as I sometimes go about it with a little tact (but the fact that I don’t want to be a huge asshole probably helps. ;))
Just because you are free to way whatever you want, doesn’t mean, that anybody has to listen or agree with you. If people don’t agree with your opinion and they let you know it, they are exercising their own freedom of speech.
And also, nobody owes you to platform your beliefs uncritically. Either you find a community, that wants to engage with you (and you talk to the other communities that wanna engage with your community) or you create your own community (and yeah, that could cost you a small amount of money and time). My point is, you can’t just expect people to let you use the resources that they pay for to platform opinions that they find harmful enough to not wanna talk to you again. Saying that someone banning someone from their community is impeading on your free speech is just like complaining that someone didn’t invite you to their party because you insulted them.
Disagreeing is one thing, and it’s what we’re doing, right? But there’s a big difference when you’re being dogpiled, vilified, harassed, insulted, and strawmanned all because people dislike what you said, even if it wasn’t offensive or wrong. Then you get your comments removed and your account banned when you merely defend your point of view.
And also, nobody owes you to platform your beliefs uncritically
But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying quite the opposite, when even the point you’re making is calling something into question. These mods aren’t even paying for the hosting service.
Saying that someone banning someone from their community is impeading on your free speech is just like complaining that someone didn’t invite you to their party because you insulted them.
Oh, come on, these are open forums where everyone is encouraged to participate at first, and you don’t even have to be insulting to get on the wrong side of some people. I have been banned while being perfectly polite and following the rules.
Well, your entire argument is based on very vague anecdotal observations and you didn’t mention any concrete examples, so arguing against your points feels kind of pointless.
What were the exact things you said on which communities, that got you “dogpiled”?
And please just be honest, you are not some kind of politian trying to win a debate by any means possible, I see this more as a conversation.
vague anecdotal observations
Sounds like you’re just trying to wave me off.
What were the exact things you said on which communities, that got you “dogpiled”?
Don’t worry about it. Talking to you seems kind of pointless, too, seeing as you’re not even a mod or an admin.
And please just be honest, you are not some kind of politian trying to win a debate by any means possible, I see this more as a conversation.
I’m sorry, what? Aren’t we doing exactly that? How am I being a politician? I think you have the wrong idea about me and are trying to steer the conversation back on the track that it’s already on for some reason. lol
Honestly, I’d rather not deal with these annoying mischaracterizations. I’ve said my peace, I think I’m done.
Step on an eggshell about gender identity that rubs someone the wrong way
You are vilified and immediately banned from lemmy.blahaj.zone
I’ve never found it hard to avoid offending trans people. Just don’t be a dick, be respectful instead.
Well, yeah, I know how to behave. I have a long history of participating in the trans community. I’m not foreign to any of these things.
But none of that matters when the other person misinterprets what you’re saying or what you mean, attributes malice to your words, and refuses to change their perspective when you try to explain, while demanding an apology for what is essentially an innocuous comment as if you killed their cat.
The fact of the matter is that, much like the atheist community that I’ve come to abhor after being a part of it for over a decade, the trans community also has its fair share of crazies. And those aren’t even my words, but the words of a trans friend with whom I used to go to these trans events. He also got fed up with their bullshit and would rant at me about them while sharing screenshots. And even now I try to be more patient than him, but sometimes I think to myself, “holy shit, he was right.”
attributes malice to your words, and refuses to change their perspective when you try to explain, while demanding an apology for what is essentially an innocuous comment as if you killed their cat.
You see, that’s where I find it much easier than you. If I accidentally offend someone that I really didn’t mean to, especially if they’re in a marginalised group that has had plenty of shit thrown at them for it their whole life, I find it very easy to apologise, back down, maybe try to explain that I didn’t mean it the way they read it, but being careful to very clearly restate my apology for the offence I caused afterwards if I do.
You would rather tell them that they were wrong and that you were right, and you’re prepared to argue it long and hard. I find that completely unnecessary, because I don’t need to win if I didn’t mean to beat them in the first place.
I have difficulty backing down in lots of scenarios but accidentally upsetting someone I didn’t mean to isn’t one of them.
Well, yeah, I know how to behave.
Not how to back down when you didn’t mean to upset people, though.
I think you’re assuming a lot about what the interaction actually was about, how it happened, and why. And you’re assuming that I don’t know what being part of a marginalized group that gets constant shit thrown at feels like.
An apology is not in order when the person is making a big deal out of nothing, making shit up, and reframing what’s being said to defend imaginary people. Then add to that malice when things don’t go their way. If I had said something about a particular person, I would understand, but I said it about a drawing.
I have difficulty backing down in lots of scenarios but accidentally upsetting someone I didn’t mean to isn’t one of them.
That’s because you haven’t met the whiteknights in the community who get upset on behalf of others. You know how white people will sometimes cry culture appropriation, and the natives are like, “uh, we’re actually ok with that”? Yeah, they exist in the gay world too, and some are vicious and vindictive. To me, it sounds like you’re defending a Karen.
You usually won’t find it hard to avoid offending people with reasonable expectations. Just don’t be a dick, be respectful instead.
But there can be unreasonable in all groups. You just haven’t met an unreasonable trans person yet.
Although I haven’t either and the depictions I know of might just have been another one of those social stunts, there most probably are a few out there.Did you downvote your own post?! The scores are +0-1 when I’m seeing it (and the-1 isn’t me).
You’re right about me not meeting an unreasonable trans person. All the trans folks I know or have known in real life are fantastic people who I have a lot of respect for and have gone through a lot of shit from other people. I think it’s worth me doing my best not to add to that and definitely value them as they are.
(Some people who are bullied go on to be bullies, but far, far, far from all, and statistically, yes, there should be some trans people who are unreasonable or bullies, and I think I’ve encountered an unreasonable trans person on lemmy, but I will only ever criticise the mean things they say or their politics, never their gender or presentation.)
Generally, I don’t understand why people think that trans folk haven’t had enough criticism, “explaining”, social rejection, etc etc etc.
Did you downvote your own post?! The scores are +0-1 when I’m seeing it (and the-1 isn’t me).
Considering there was a 17 hours gap, it’s quite possible that someone had the time to read and downvote it before you saw it.
And I get it, there are quite a few people who don’t like people that don’t perform fake values.
One of the depictions of unreasonable trans people was a video that came up in the beginning of the this trend of trans people coming out + a lot of people getting medical treatments related to their gender identity.
It was some tall, brown coloured, athletically muscular “man” (because he looked mostly like a man, apart from the lipstick, which might as well have been just a man wearing lipstick, to those around him) loudly complaining about something in a restaurant, while the staff tried to de-escalate. One of the staff members then calls him (her?) “Sir”, to which (s)he then became melodramatic. Although the chap didn’t end up telling others what (s)he wanted to be called, until the very end of the video.Now, it might have been someone with a genuine problem, that was just not captured in the video, but could also have been someone just trying to gather hatred towards a community that hadn’t even been formed yet.
But of course, I have had a depiction of trans(-ish?) people long before the trend started on the US internet. It is of groups of people (called “ladyboys” by English reporters, but there has been a colloquial term) who are often hermaphrodites, but could also be eunuchs.
The story about them I was told as a child, was that they come in groups during marriages, asking for exorbitant (but somewhat payable) amounts of money and ‘make a scene’ if not paid. The scene they make would be stuff like public nudity, with obscene looking displays, or going around cursing people (which some person told me that they actually work).To me, that looked like just some begging+harassment ring. Add to that, an anecdote of one my relatives having been casually molested in public as a child by them, made me think pretty lowly of them.
Those groups seem to have died down now (I think?), which maybe partially because the Government officially recognised the third gender (quite a while ago actually, since I see it in govt. forms) and apart from them getting access to education (the Govt. funded kind, meant for poor people, because if one is rich, being in a minority is just a minor inconvenience as far as “means” go), also getting some reservation quota for certain menial jobs, if they were to not find work normally.
And then there was the depiction of a hermaphrodite in the pretty popular cartoon (anime) “Kochikame”, which made me think that Japan had been ahead in this kind of thing, as the depicted person was normally working as an officer.
Did you downvote your own post?! The scores are +0-1 when I’m seeing it (and the-1 isn’t me).
Considering there was a 17 hours gap, it’s quite possible that someone had the time to read and downvote it before you saw it.
Yeah, but on my instance, anything you post automatically has a +1 from yourself, which you must have removed.
Your takes on trans people and intersex people seem to all be from concern trolling media and third hand stories. Trans people are like witches that hand out curses that cause harm? I think your skepticism alarm should be going off.
For the record, molesting children is absolutely not OK under any circumstances. I forget what the statistics are, but I remember that the number of incidents of trans people being sex offenders is far lower than you would expect from the prevalence of trans people and of sex offending in the general population.
It seems to me that you were fed a lot of negative stereotypes of trans and intersex people when you were young, and I worry that you are interpreting finding the lack of evidence of any of this in the real world now that you are older as a change in the world when it might be wiser to take it as evidence that the negative stereotypes were always sensational, overblown and inaccurate.
Whoa whoa whoa there.
On Reddit you can say whatever you want.
As long as everyone likes what you say.
Fuck that insipid septic tank to death.
It’s a lot more free than reddit, but the userbase of lemmy is a lot more extremist and tends to harass/insult you more. The issue is they can’t get you banned sitewide like they could on reddit for saying something that upsets them. on reddit i got a sitewide ban for having and outdoor cat. it was absurd, but the idiot mob mentality on reddit has that power. on lemmy they don’t, at worst you would just get banned from one instance.
Certainly less aggressive admins and auto mods.
I’d actually consider Lemmy’s freedom of speech to be very similar to the US. Nobody on the network can limit your speech in your own instance but nobody has to platform your terrible speech and everyone is free to ignore your speech and exclude you to just participating on your own instance.
Ive made many comments that go against the general view of the user base. It gets downvoted but never deleted or banned. So I would say its pro free speech.
Not in my experience. I’ve gotten into an argument while specifically pleading against sharing screen-wide, zoomed-in images of common phobias like spiders without a spoiler/NSFW out of basic consideration.
Not only did people go out of their way to misunderstand what I was saying, but I got too many wholly nasty replies, and then got banned for reporting someone else for actually breaking the sub and site-wide rules, and was accused of being a “well-known troll” in the modlog. The fuck?
Needless to say, I got the mod to unban me when I called them out in another thread, and they eventually apologized.
But the knee-jerk reaction, close-mindedness, and immediate hate that I got felt a lot like the prejudice I’ve seen with homophobia. It’s so exhausting to see these prejudices and attitudes so readily prop up in unexpected places, especially in a forum where you’d think people know better.
Technically, yeah. Some instances are run by tin-pot dictators with delusions of godhood, but if you get banned from one of those just switch to another one.
The communities tend to be bubblier, though, since they’re small. So if your opinions don’t match you’ll get shouted down harder.
The hive is a lot more arrogant here.
the superiority complex here is very high. apparently everyone is a genius because they use Linux.
And because they’re Communarchyalists. Don’t forget that.
Please stay on reddit. You’re a perfect fit there, here we’re all horrible baby eating communists so you wouldn’t like it.
There is one nice feature that pushes back against hive-mindedness here that Reddit lacks, at least; you can see your upvote and downvote totals rather than just the single aggregate total. Reddit used to be like that years ago but they got rid of it.
That means that if you say something that gets a ton of both downvotes and upvotes you can at least know that there were a significant number of people who liked it it. Over on Reddit saying anything that netted negative karma felt like screaming into the void.
Oh, and the small population means that downvoted comments are still likely easy to see. That helps too.
Still, the Fediverse does feel more strongly bubbled than Reddit does, from my subjective and anecdotal position.
deleted by creator
Yeah. Basically, I go to Reddit for independent information. I come here to essentially get yelled for having a nuanced take.
A nuanced take on Reddit is pretty much a guarantee of downvotes and arguments against things your weren’t saying
That’s not been my experience. Perhaps it’s the subs I tend to post in? Either way- a nuanced take is FAR less likely to be accepted here.
which bubble am I in now?
10 hours ago over in lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world you saw a picture that you rather liked but that was getting a lot of downvotes and you didn’t know why. You were told by @breadleyloafsyou@lemmy.zip that “lemmy doesn’t like AI”
Also 10 hours ago over in nostupidquestions@lemmy.world you said “I know its an unpopular opinion, but I don’t agree with punching Nazis. It makes them look like a victim, and violence never works.” You got a bunch of downvotes for that yourself.
Just a couple of examples of situations where an opinion that was against the consensus view of the community got “punished.”
Lemmy.world, so the largest general ‘bubble’ so to speak. You’re on the generalist, relatively moderate instance.
I feel like when people describe anything as moderate on the fediverse, they’re really taking about the middle ground between centrism and true communism. And somehow that’s still icky for some people’s tastes. Lol
I would never in a million years describe myself as moderate and I find myself agreeing with the great majority of opinions I come across. That’s how the general vibe of the entire instance feels, and it’s still not leftist enough for some folks, somehow.
Yes, moderate here is a relative term in the context of the wider fediverse.
Yeah, I’m not commenting on whether it’s a relative term, but where that line falls. It’s already quite left, and somehow people are still clutching their pearls.
the point of being a extremist is nothing is good enough for you. it’s a quest for ever more extreme views to feel superior/purer than the unwashed non-ideological masses.
the ‘drug’ of extremism is that it makes feel people feel ‘special’. ONLY they know the TRUTH.
Okay “centrist”.
I’ll go be extreme in my belief that people should be able to live without being harassed and murdered for who they were born.
lbgt+ extremists are 100% for harassment, murder, and assault when it’s someone they disgaree with. lots of them don’t think heterosexuality should exist, and many of them are anti-bi, anti-trans hate groups who have these weird ‘queer is supreme’ mindsets and feel they have the right to tell everyone else how to live.
charlie kirk murder is one of them. very popular view here on lemmy that his death was 100% justified because of what he said, while harming nobody.
What makes Lemmy different from Reddit is that if some moderator or admin is limiting your freedom of speech, you can run your own instance with your own rules and communities and still be on Lemmy. Reddit can ban you from Reddit, but Lemmy is like a collection of “reddits” that integrate and there is no central authority. To answer your question, as a user you have more freedom to find an instance with rules that align with your values and wishes, and you always have the option to create your own instance, and no one can stop you. If you say things that other people don’t want to hear, they might block you, but that doesn’t limit your freedom of speech.
lol look at the modlog
at least lemmy makes that public
thank you so much
Some instances are really not about freedom but when I had problems I just moved and here is fine! I like it more
yeah .world so far seems to have the most chill userbase.
I would add to this that there is significant controversy around the ideological alignment of the lemmy developers, and most people would find the political leanings of the instances they’re associated with to be… unpalatable.
I’ll leave you to undertake that journey of discovery for yourself, suffice to say that freedom of speech is particularly limited on those instances.
Other software operates in the fediverse and is interoperable with lemmy. For example, myself and the commenter you replied to are registered with piefed servers, while this post is on a lemmy server.
If you say things that other people don’t want to hear, they might block you, but that doesn’t limit your freedom of speech.
So it is like Trump’s own ‘social’ media: I make my own and there I can say all kinds of bull that nobody wants to hear 🤣
In a way, yes, but his site isn’t federated with other sites. Truth social is a modified Mastodon instance.
TS being a Mastodon fork is so disgusting.
E: To clarify, I mean that Truth Social’s admins are capitalizing on it to promote views antithetical to pretty much everything that Mastodon stands for.
It has just as much freedom as any other platform. It all depends on who the admins and moderators are. We do have better tools of keeping those in check, with the modlog being publicly available tho.
The modlog can be scrubbed, though. Afaik, if a mod bans someone and removes the user’s content at once, the modlog only logs the ban but all the comments are removed without a trace.
deleted by creator
