This is bad.
…But I’m very worried about the future of Wikipedia.
Questionable leadership or not, it is a lighthouse in the information dystopia of the 2020s, which literally helps hold society together.
The far right wants it gone, and are not shy about screaming it, because Wikipedia is not compatible with fascism.
If it becomes hated by the left too, and ignored by the masses because of Big Tech blacklists it, I worry it won’t have the political support to keep its prominence.
And to be clear, I’m not worried about it dying. Wikipedia will stay where it is for decades.
I’m worried about it ceasing to be popular.
It doesn’t function as a uncontrolled source of information if no one sees it. Modern fascist censorship works by simply shifting attention.
The Wikimedia foundation vastly outpaces expenses. Despite doing their best to convince you if you don’t donate $10 right now Wikipedia will literally evaporate 🥺🙏
They can afford to not pay like shit
They’re also wasting massive amounts of money on things outside their core mission and scope.
I think you missed my point.
I’m not worried about them running out of funding. I’m worried about their reputation in the public’s eye.
No I got that I was just pointing out there’s no reason to do this besides naked greed
thanks for this info, cancelled my recurring donation 😮💨 I’ll give that money to a small local org instead
Then they need to drop the losers behind this anti-union BS. This isn’t a complicated problem. If they’re against working people they don’t deserve political support. Anyone who cares enough can rip the site and rehost it elsewhere anyway or preferably multiple elsewheres so we don’t run into this issue again.
being more worried about the reputation of your fave than the quality of your fave, because you’re so convinced it needs to exist, is how we get catholic church cover-ups and rightwing politicians transparently masquerading as populist socialists. value an insitution for what it is, not what you need it to be
I can’t tell if your’re agreeing or disagreeing with me but them taking an anti-union shows their quality. If they aren’t for working people then they have none and they don’t need to exist. The information there can easily be re-homed elsewhere.
yeah sorry pal, i was trying to add onto what you were saying, in disagreeing with the comment you were replying to. wish I’d made that clearer. sorry for the confusion
No worries.
Questionable leadership or not, it is a lighthouse in the information dystopia of the 2020s, which literally helps hold society together.
It pioneered a novel mechanism for collaborating on a project with minimal trust between contributors. But it was also riddled with bias and vulnerable to exploitation and as prone to cultivating disinformation as a universal source of truth.
Rather than fixating on the site as some last bastion of Web 1.0 nostalgia, we would do well to do better than Wikipedia.
Organizations like the Internet archive project have, imho, done as much or more than Wikipedia because of their commitment to accumulating primary source material. Managing that catalog and incorporating it into an encyclopedia of knowledge is much more than just stuffing a hard drive full of editor arguments and dead links from the old site.
Well, unfortunately, there is no project like that with Wikipedia’s critical mass. Most attempts with any attention are rather horrific. See: Grokipedia.
If Wikipedia dies, nothing good will replace it.
I know that’s a bit defeatist, but I really think its “the best we got.” Nothing better is coming with the state the internet is in now.
And I just want to emphasize that maybe a small community could build something better. I know.
But in terms of “keeping a healthy knowledge base for civilization,” that kind of project doesn’t matter if no-one sees it. Wikipedia is valuable because its a reasonably sane default reference for billions of people, that isn’t some megacorp or government.
See: Grokipedia.
That’s a very low bar.
Well, unfortunately, there is no project like that with Wikipedia’s critical mass. Most attempts with any attention are rather horrific. See: Grokipedia.
Idk if you even want the kind of attention Wikipedia achieved, given how it ultimately became the target of endless waves of scams and influencer operations.
That said, the Wiki format has been prolific in a way even the core website has not been. The core data for Wikipedia has been harvested and replicated across a thousand different boutique iterations. A lot of what made things like Grokipedia and Conservapedia and the rest flop is that these projects tried to administer the sites even more tightly than the original. And it’s an enormous project, so that loads a phenomenal amount of work on a handful of people.
If Wikipedia dies, nothing good will replace it.
That’s an absurd presumption. Just straight off the bat, you have the old Encyclopedia Britannica. You’ve got dozens of alternative Wiki competitors with their own rarified communities of editors and contributors. You’ve got subject-specific Wikis for a thousand different fandoms, hobbies, and crafts. You’ve got physical libraries. You’ve got digital libraries. You’ve got LLM compositions of libraries.
The biggest flaw most of these have is the same one any search engine after Google had. “Why would I go here if I can just go to Wikipedia instead?”
But the idea that tens of millions of curious people and subject-experts are just going to endure a vacuum? Come on.
Wikipedia is valuable because its a reasonably sane default reference for billions of people
It’s a very English-language and Euro-History oriented source of truth for tens of millions of online nerds. If it gets subsumed or shut down or otherwise undermined by western-aligned governments, I might suggest that the problem will not be an absence of Wikipedia but the presence of a malignant surveillance-enabled censorship bureaucracy.
What you will experience is not merely a lack of oxygen but a surplus of boot on your neck.
the old Encyclopedia Britannica.
No one uses this.
You’ve got dozens of alternative Wiki competitors with their own rarified communities of editors and contributors.
No one uses them.
You’ve got subject-specific Wikis for a thousand different fandoms, hobbies, and crafts.
Fandom has a grip on this space, unfortunately, and that’s under Wales too. Yes, I know there are community alternatives, but their traffic/SEO is small in comparison.
But the idea that tens of millions of curious people and subject-experts are just going to endure a vacuum? Come on.
They absolutely will.
They already have!
Look at the rest of the internet. Literally every space, every niche, every congregation of experts has rotted away, and these “curious people and subject-experts” are clingimg to big social media toxic spaces because it’s the default.
It’s a very English-language and Euro-History oriented source of truth for tens of millions of online nerds. If it gets subsumed or shut down or otherwise undermined by western-aligned governments, I might suggest that the problem will not be an absence of Wikipedia but the presence of a malignant surveillance-enabled censorship bureaucracy.
You’re speaking of an internet that, for the bulk of humanity, doesn’t exist anymore. It is all but gone. That’s what I’m saying.
Maybe a few million nerds would create new Wikipedias, but the billions of other people on their phones and tablets would almsot never see it.
And that is dangerous for society. Wikipedia’s sheer critical mass is a huge monkey wrench in “soft” censorship, and for all its faults, every bit Wikipeida is delegitimized is a fascist dream-come-true.
And I hear a lot of people talking like that popularity isn’t important. There’s this sort of “old internet” attiude like we can just archive it and keep to ourselves. What does everyone else matter?
Well. Without Wikipedia putting the braKES on loss of freedoms in our IRL lives, we may lose the ability to do that.
No one uses this.
Estimated annual revenue of around $100M. That’s half of Wikipedia’s. Someone’s using it.
No one uses them.
Quora alone has 400 million monthly active users.
Look at the rest of the internet. Literally every space, every niche, every congregation of experts has rotted away
None of that is true. Your institutional knowledge hasn’t keep pace with the modern net. And your nostalgia has biased you against anything novel or unfamiliar.
You’re rotting. The net is doing fine.
Nobody sane is using Quora as a legitimate source of information. Seems like you’re the one not keeping pace with the modern net. Would you also suggest Pinterest lead the charge in representing collective human knowledge?
Nobody sane is using Quora as a legitimate source of information.
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Nobody uses anything but Wikipedia
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Nobody I like use anything but Wikipedia
Uh-huh
Would you also suggest Pinterest lead the charge in representing collective human knowledge?
If you’re interested in art, fashion, or any number of other hobbies, absolutely.
But if you want to host other media on their systems, it works just as well. I suspect you just feel embarrassed to use other websites.
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some entries are already questionable asf. some of them are written like an opinon piece, or a hs essay.
Wikipedia is made by people, like me and you. If you see bias or wrong information, you can either fix it or flag it with an appropriate template.
I really would like to, but German Wikipedia for example is something of an inner circle where you can’t do shit. They don’t allow newcomers to touch most of the articles.
Reddit, Wikipedia, Fediverse… powertripping mods are everywhere.
Please link such an article. I have never ever received a link to one when asking this question and I always ask for one/them when I read such “accusations”.
I am also curious what AnBee tried to edit and was refused.
If you’re a newcomer, start with simple edits. Fix small mistakes. Show the community you can be trusted.
Unlikely you can just ‘fix’ most points on articles. They have mad gatekeepers.
I don’t understand this, the employees are few and the pr fallout + fighting this is much more expensive than just agreeing to what they demand
Plus it’s a foundation and shouldn’t have profit
the employees are few
WMF has 650 employees.
What they’re going to demand is preventing arbitrary layoffs, less bullying in the workspace, etc. Supposedly the Foundation is very toxic workplace. It’s not (just) about the money.
Yet more evidence for my “never trust a self described libertarian” stance. Hasn’t failed me yet.
Might as well mirror the whole site, run it elsewhere where the suits don’t have control over people.
I have an old 2023 copy of Wikipedia saved to my NAS using kiwix. This is probably the most recent version I’ll ever need. But yeah, it’s long overdue for some healthy competition, conflicts have been brewing for over a decade at this point.
This is probably the most recent version I’ll ever need.
Assuming nothing historically significant happens after that download, sure.
I’ve got an ancient encyclopedia from the 1950s that my dad owned. Let me tell you how useful that’s been over the years.
When I was a kid in the 80’s, my sister and I found an old World Book Encyclopedia from the 50’s that someone in our neighborhood was throwing out, so we brought it home. It had some interesting “facts” in it. E.g., did you know that guinea pigs are perfect as subjects for scientific research because they’re unable to feel pain? 1950’s worldbook did!
That’s the cool thing about knowledge. We learn new things all the time. 70 years from now, things we think are true today will be laughed at as ignorant and naive.
Like an old Sears catalogs, old encyclopedias are fun snap shots into the past and worth the read.
Uhhhh there is no way that is true
I mean, I don’t have the encyclopedia anymore, so I guess I can’t really prove it to you. But it was sort of my introduction to the idea that not everything in an encyclopedia is necessarily true, so it’s pretty memorable for me. I recognize the irony of using another encyclopedia here, but Wikipedia mentions in the History section of its Pain in Animals article, “Researchers remained unsure into the 1980s as to whether animals experience pain.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_animals#History ) I obviously don’t know the story about how the line ended up in World Book, but I know they employ fact checkers for every line in the book, so presumably in the 50’s the line reflected some kind of scientific consensus, as bizarre as that sounds now.
I have a single volume of an 1875 encyclopedia, it’s facsinating
@spicehoarder @lechekaflan how did you do it? We can download wikipedia content from anyplace or did you scrappe it yourself?
So, here’s a link to the kiwix site: https://get.kiwix.org/en/solutions/applications/kiwix-server/ – I run their server software from my NAS, but you can run it anywhere really.
Go to a browser (MS Edge always refuses to load my Kiwix site, I use firefox) and just type in the IP of the machine you started the server on, plus the port. something like
192.168.1.XXX:80orlocalhost:80if you did it that way.Then, to download the actual ZIM files, which is the archive format chosen by kiwix (idk why) you can go here: https://browse.library.kiwix.org/
I should note that the zims only load when the server is started, you can’t just add new ones while the service is running, you’ll need to stop it and restart.
Hope this helps! Message me if you need more info :)
Then, to download the actual ZIM files,
Is that zim wiki related? 🤢
You can easily self host it with Kiwix, runs in a docker, and you just point it at the latest version of Wikipedia (you can download everything or just text). Then when you want to update the Wikipedia, just download the new version.
Lots of things could do with more competition more than ever
I’d rather use Grokpedia or Stupidedia, anyway. Gotta have my ✨ alternative facts ✨.
Cancelled my monthly. I’ll start it again when I receive info that the workers have a union.
Did the same.
God dammit, this is like the moment the Titanic first hit the iceberg. No matter how this labor issue is resolved, it will permanently demonize Wikimedia. No matter how valuable Wikipedia is or has ever been, current culture provides no foregiveness or path of redemption after an ethical transgression. Again, dammit, I love Wikipedia and have been donating steadily for years.
Let’s not say never. Because they can course correct but it has to be hard pivot:
- immediately recognize the union
- in the same statement, provide a path for every other employee to form a union and guarantee that if formation passes, that they will immediately recognize it
- commit whatever amount they were going to pay their union busting attorneys plus 25% towards helping other unionizing efforts across the tech industry
- provide free legal services for unions at other companies to help them get recognized
The fact that Wikimedia foundation chose profits over people is absolutely disgusting.
- Shitcan whoever was responsible for hiring the union busters in the first place.
Yeah I’m probably never donating again after this. Why even bother arguing with the current US administration when the foundation is just going to copy all the bullshit the administration is pushing anyway…like, congratulations now literally everybody is pissed at your service.
You really don’t need to donate to them. Wikipedia has enough money to run itself indefinitely. The foundation just keeps growing and wasting money on non-Wikipedia stuff.
Curious, what does Wikimedia actually invest in besides Wikipedia? It’s still a non-profit, right?
As of June 30th, 2025 (this years report is pending), Wikimedia has $213 million invested in corporate bonds, stocks, mutual funds, mortgage-based and US Treasury securities. This is about a $30 million uptick from 2024:
Meanwhile, their actual hosting expenses sit at $3,5 million. Should they cut benefits and grants, they can last indefinitely on their assets appreciation alone.
Wow. So Wikimedia is really just a small hedge fund that happens to run the servers for an encyclopedia on the side. I had a hunch they spent a lot more on other non-wikipedia stuff, but for hosting to cost almost 2% of what they invest is eye opening. And makes it all the more petty that they can’t pay their labor. Especially since so much labor is in fact volunteer work.
I only donate from time to time but people who cancel recurring donations should write to them the reason as to why.
I responded to their email asking for donations explaining why I won’t be donating this year. I usually donate a small amount each year but I won’t be until they change their mind.
Wikimedia please fire whatever consulting firm told you it’s a good idea to do extractive capitalism as a non-profit foundation, reliant on long-term community goodwill and sustainable work ethics with low turnover rate
I was initially 80/20 against/for Wikipedia’s stance. I tentatively agreed with Wales’ criticism of identity tracking for the initial vote, but needed more information to form a solid opinion. Then I saw the mention of their hiring a union busting firm in addition to their current relationship with a known union busting law firm.
Fuck them, 100%. I immediately cancelled my ongoing monthly donation, which I’ve provided for years. Until the Wikimedia Foundation recognizes their unionized employees and works with them in good faith, they will get not a penny from me
Yeah I’m cancelling my donation immediately. Not that my $2.30/month will break their budget, but fuck them now.
A penny here a penny there… it’ll add up.
I never would have heard about this if not for the fediverse
One of the reasons I am on the Fediverse is that it often highlights pieces not widely reported on mainstream media. This is not just one case
Perfect timing. I just started donating to a new startup that seems as promising as Wikipedia once was. Nonprofit whose goal is to start their own universal basic income for users who don’t want to wait for the government to start one. Now I can cancel my Wikipedia donations and not feel so bad
Well, tell us who this is so we can support the real ones!
Same, drop the details comment op!
Haha ok ok my bad it’s called comingle and i think it’s still in beta phase for another month…
Aaand bye bye any intent I ever had to donate again. Fuckers.
We should probably all be downloading the website and printing off the important stuff, like how to make fire and why the sky-spirits get mad sometimes.
Should probably pull down a copy of Project Gutenberg too.
Maybe there’s something of human output worth saving. If only so more fortunate future generations, should any exist, can pinpoint where shit went wrong.
can pinpoint where shit went wrong.
I don’t think there was a single, specific, event, but i’d wager mid-to-late 90s and early 00s.
You’re right. Project Gutenberg wouldn’t have anything from that period and wouldn’t be useful.
We should probably all be downloading the website and printing off the important stuff
Sort of defeats the fundamental purpose of a collaborative online encyclopedia.
If I want a massive hard copy of collected human knowledge, I just go to the public library. I don’t need to print my own.
But if I want to look something up on the fly (much less check down a bunch of citations), a thousand dead trees worth of printer paper isn’t going to deliver the goods.
Did you have an ancestor telling the people trying to save scrolls from burning that removing them ‘defeats the purpose of the library of Alexander’ or were you adopted?
You’re describing a single centralized warehouse for physical media. You’re neglecting thousands of other information repositories and alternative methodologies for conveying information.
And as people convert ancient scrolls to modern hard cover books, you’re screaming “nobody reads books! This will never work!”
A single centralized warehouse for physical media
Sure, once you remove all historical context. Wait, are you Grok?
Its certainly easier to download it and search for it at home than it is to go to the library. They both have their uses, but Kiwix is pretty awesome.
I don’t agree.
The fact that it’s a collaborative online encyclopedia is great, and especially because it has so many contributors.
A collaborative online encyclopedia with a smaller number of contributors makes it less useful, just like a one-time copy of a collaborative online encyclopedia with a larger number of contributors makes it less useful. However, that does not make it entirely useless.
I have an older archived copy of Wikipedia. I should probably update it some time.
I hate this. I really hate this.
I’m not familiar with how unions work in the USA. Why does a union need to he recognized by a company? Just to have a formal communication pathway or is there more to it?
I do know the answer to this. In the US, the process goes roughly so:
Workers want to form a union. Workers sign authorization cards allowing a specific union to represent them. The union approaches the company and says, we have enough of your workers who want to join, (50% +1) will you voluntarily recognize that your workers have formed a union.
At this point it can go a few ways. The company can demand proof that there are 50%+1 workers authorizing the union to rep them. A neutral 3rd party will inspect the cards and attest this to the National Labor Relations Board office in that state. Like a public notary or professional witness. This protects the anonymity of the workers.
The company can immediately, or following this process recognize the union. They can go to the bargaining table and strike a deal with the workers, or enroll with the union under the area agreement and get the workers signed up.
The company can refuse, like wikimedia did, and demand it go to an election. A date is set and the workers come in to vote by anonymous ballot wether to be represented by the union.
If the company is some real shitheels they’ll start dumping $$ into discouraging the workers from voting yes. They hire a union buster and hold captive audience meetings. The union buster tells the workers any kind of lies and bullshit they want, they are a 3rd party and therefore not liable for the bullshit they spout. They say the company will go bankrupt. The company can’t afford to have union workers. Unions are corrupt and suck you dry with dues and don’t deliver a better life for you and your family. Etc.
Companies frequently violate labor law during this time period. They give raises and benefits to anti-union workers. They fire union supporters (they will owe these workers back wages later). They lie to their workers, threaten the workers, intimidate the workers. Often this corrupts the election process and if the election fails, it can be overturned and repeated because of the illegal practices of the company and union busters. Their goal is to wear out and drive away pro-union workers by dragging the process on indefinately. When you see pickets, this is often what the picket is about. Informing the public that the company is mistreating the workers violating their right to form a union.
Wikimedia are some real shitheels.
That’s exactly how it worked for my agency.
They were dragging new hires in and ordering them to sign away the union without knowing anything about them.
they are a 3rd party and therefore not liable for the bullshit they spout.
Screw that liability BS so hard. You hire them to represent your company, you need to be accountable for what they do under your payroll.
I just hope the past generation (going on two now) have gotten people to see through the gaslighting and we can rise up against it this time.
Its not just liability, its that the laws apply to what you say to YOUR workers. So a union buster can say whatever they want because they are not the employer.
Unions then have to spend $$ on lawyers making arguments before the National Labor Relations Board that the union busters were acting as agents of the employer to violate the law. If that sticks, it is still the company that is held liable, usually through having to hold a fresh election. The union busters move on to another company collecting 5 and six figure checks for attending a few meetings to lie to the employees. Scum.
How do you get out of bed in the morning when that’s the “work” you do. Lying to hard working people trying to better themselves
INAL and even further away from am American one, but I shall inboke the law of Cunningham . Having the company recognising or just generally being okay with the union formation makes the whole process easier. No hiding your unionisation activities and such. I believe the role of the union-buster is to dissuade the employees from signing up to it, see if there’s any dirt on union leaders to have then fired, and to just generally be a royal pain in the arse for everyone.
If I got the story right a bunch of Blizzard developers got fired because they shared company secrets/IP in the same discord server they discussed their unionisation work, so Blizzard’s lawyers found an easy way to get rid of them.
