For those say in their 60s or 70s here. When you were in your 30’s or 40’s did you have the feeling that the world was a fucked up place? So much has been going on since I entered adulthood in the early 2000s and I feel like it’s getting more and more intense. It’s never ending.
Is it unique? Or has it always been this way?
I’m 57 in the US and up until the last ten years I always thought that things would get better in my lifetime and that ultimately my country would eventually choose the right financial and moral paths. Now I not only don’t believe that will happen in my lifetime but I doubt if this nation will bounce back in my kid’s lifetime, if ever.
Same age, same thoughts. The past was violent & sucky but it really felt like we were making progress, things were getting better. Some things have, there’s a lot less violence where I live, and more to do, the city has progressed.
Honestly I think the slide started after Bush vs Gore, and very often wish I had been in the other timeline, where the votes got counted before he conceded, Gore seemed conceited but smart, geeky and took good ideas seriously.
Well, there are two songs which I think answer your question:
And
Besuchen sie Europa, solange es noch steht
Which is a song about visiting Europe before it will be destroyed by the then assumed imminent nuclear war.
Slightly newer but, It’s the end of the world and we know it also
No, the 80s and 90s were fantastic. I would go back if I could. I thought it was bad that there was wars and corruption but I had the feeling that leaders tried to do the right thing. Maybe they didnt but I felt like they did. Not today.
Well, as an American, I can only speak for my lifetime…
Late 60s/Early 70s - Vietnam/Nixon - Pretty fucked up.
Late 70s - Iran hostage crisis - Fucked up.
80s - Reagan/Bush - Iran/Contra - Recession - Iraq War I - Fucked up.
90s - Clinton era was pretty good. Big scandal was a blowjob. People actively talking about blowjobs all the time.
2000s - Bush II, 9/11, Iraq War II, Abu Ghraib, 2008 financial crash - VERY fucked up.
Late 2000s - Obama - Not awful. He should have ended Bush’s drone program, but not awful.
2017-2020 - Trump. Covid. 1,000,000 dead Americans. INCREDIBLY fucked up.
Early 2020s - Biden - Fucked up inflation. Covid weirdness.
Now? (gestures)
I guess this is accurate but people were different during these eras too. Leaders did bad things but there was a sense of ordinary people being mostly good. At least I had that feeling.
As a kid, I noticed the price of comic books going up from $0.25 to $0.75. Of course they are $5 to $10 now. 😉
Always has been, the big difference is it wasn’t streamed straight into your eyes in real time
Yep, only in my 50s but this is correct. All the shit under Reagan, Nixon etc, decades of meddling in the middle east before that. A century of oppressing South America. All the labor struggles. It’s like the increase in the diagnosed cases of autism. The number of cases didn’t increase. Only our awareness.
Yep, you had to get out of bed, and walk a few miles, if you wanted to see public torture and humiliation of others.
But executions and all that were public events. Not behind closed doors like today.
Thank you all for your comments. I have read them all but not able to reply to them individually. I must say though, we are living in the most comfortable time in any point in human history. Modern conveniences and access to medicine is definitely the highlight of modern times. I also recognise I have much to be thankful for in my personal life. Stable, well paying job, a wonderful wife and healthy wonderful children. I could’ve been born in any part of the world, at any point in human history and overall I am grateful for where I am right now.
However, after more thought, it does feel like globally something has shifted since 2020. More conflict, more division, more anger. Are we leading up to something much worse? Who knows. Social media hasn’t helped either - immediate access to everyone’s thoughts and opinions I don’t believe is a good thing whereas before people had to specifically write to a newspaper and maybe have their one liner on an issue published, now it’s all open for everyone to know. When I start feeling this way, I tend to switch off for a while and come back when I’ve had a breather from the world. Looks like I’m due again.
In most measurable ways, it was much worse. Crime, mortality, institutionalized racism, war, etc. It looks worse now because every action and word by the people considered newsworthy is magnified and judged by thousands of opinions, many of which originate in troll farms, and many which are intended to be deliberately divisive.
Yes, the US government is infested with fascists. Yes, wealth inequality is worse than it ever was. These are real problems, and worse than they ever were before. (Though I wonder sometimes about how much damage was done by Reagan, and whether denying basic government protections to the poor was just more acceptable then.)
Generally, things were always fucked up. However, two major changes between this generation and previous ones:
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Leaders were generally portrayed as being more competent than now. Even leaders who were considered dumb at the time kept themselves to a far higher standard than now.
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The media landscape is more fractured now than before. It was common for television shows to be seen by a third of the country. It made things more uniform culturally. A lot of that is gone
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No, no it was not.
Example: when they found out what caused the hole in the ozone layer, they fixed it.
If we found out now, people would say that you can’t trust Big Academia or Big Science and nothing would be done. And don’t get me started on vaccinations.
We’re sliding rapidly backwards.
People who say it isn’t are just too lazy to do anything.
Stopping climate change is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE harder than protecting the ozone layer. Protecting ozone requires switching the chemicals we used in refrigerants and propellants to other, viable alternatives. That affected products worth, generously, maybe 1% of GDP?
Stopping climate changing the vast majority of the vehicles on the planet, along with the majority of our electrical power plants. It also necessitates stopping deforestation and overhauling a wide number of industrial processes, including for basic materials like steel and concrete. And that’s not even getting into methane emissions from livestock.
All of these things add up to a massive chunk of the planets GDP. It’s an extremely heavy lift, and it’s not fair to say that the world has gotten worse because we’re struggling more with climate change than the ozone hole.
I feel @starlinguk@lemmy.world was saying more than that. I don’t recall any serious studies or news articles suggesting the ozone hole was a hoax or that debunking a human cause. Although it was kinda an aside but the anti vaxine thing he points to. I mean one of the most effective medical interventions since soap and sterilization has people acting like its some sort of evil witchcraft that will actually harm you despite the clear evidence both clinical and personal to its effectiveness.
I don’t know of any for the ozone hole specifically, but you can look to the fight over cigarettes to see the same science-denying approach during the 50s and beyond. That was literally the blueprint for climate change denial by the fossil fuel industry in later decades.
I think that is an apt comparison and it just outlines the things to me. We really did not know smoking was bad till the 40’s and the 50’s is when it was much more conclusive and the industry was able to push off legislation for like a decade into the 60’s. The greenhouse effect although known for awhile similarly did not really become conclusive till the 50’s and still it was like the late eighties when congressional hearings brought it more into the us public sphere although many folk still did not really know about it till gores 2006 movie put it more into the common culture. The industry fud started with the congressional hearings when there was indication it might lead to regulation. So they have pretty effectively stalled it for the most part for over 30 years! In addition we have had some regulation and then had it pulled back. I think it really highlights the decline compared to before when you look at cigarettes compared to greenhouse gases.
I guess. You could also look at things like plastic pollution where industry straight up won, and during the 60s-70s successfully pushed the responsibility onto consumers to recycle while continuing to crank out single use plastic with very few restrictions.
I don’t think the industry did much there. Consumers were not exactly avoiding plastics. There was kinda a few attempts to avoid them but they did not really go anywhere except for maybe the reusable shopping bags. I have to say I used to love and get the 16 ounce pop bottles that had the deposit that you got back when you brought them back. I would be buying them now if the pop industry had not phased them out. Was still able to get them even in the first year or so of the 90’s. That ones a hard comparison.
My local grocery carries deposit-bottle drinks of some varieties (mostly milk and soda, both of which are produced locally, sometimes tea and other drinks), so they are still around in some cases. I’m also a big fan of grolsch beer because it comes in nice swing-top bottles that are great for use as a home brewer, or for making sauces or whatever you may like them for. The beer itself isn’t that good imo, but it’s basically free with the purchase of bottles, as that’s basically the cheapest way to get swing-top bottles of that size.
Very importantly, only the one grocery store carries the glass bottle soda, though there are 4 others within a 10-minute range. So it’s entirely possible that there is somewhere near you that has it and you just aren’t aware of it.
But there were a lot of news articles suggesting at that time that global warming was overrated.
But at that time the science was just solidifying so overrated was not that contrary to say its overrated or inconclusive or something. Its like at one point there was a microbiologist that thought hiv was a passenger virus and did not cause aids. Which at the time was reasonable given koch’s postulates although they are basically impossible to apply to aids but eventually we had some much evidence built up that it became moot. Which is very similar with global warming. Someone might say we don’t know enough or have done enough studies and that might be reasonable in the 50’s but becomes silly by the 90’s
At least in the US there are more trees now than when the settlers landed at Plymouth Rock.
I don’t think that’s true, we have more trees than we did 100 years ago but I couldn’t see anything about more trees than pre-European settlement. I am inclined to doubt that.
I find this hard to believe.
It certainly is, but it makes sense if you know about logging practices.
Generally, logging companies will cycle through parcels of land and replant parcels that have been clear cut so they can have guaranteed lumber in the future without having to negotiate new leases and such.
And with the massive amount of protected forests, the places they’re allowed to cut is way less than it used to be.
I mean maybe. If you count little seedlings or such. there was this thing about how a squirrel could go from one ocean to the other without ever touching the ground. I mean the logging practices prior to the settlers landing on plymouth rock were pretty anemic. I mean the natives had few buildings. All our towns and cities and buildings in general were for the most part forest or prarie and even prarie had trees especially long water sources like lakes and rivers.
I mean the natives had few buildings.
You’ve been told a racist lie. Native Americans – especially ones in the forested parts of the country – had plenty of agriculture, and at its peak in the 12th Century, Cahokia (the largest city we know about north of Mesoamerica) may have had a larger population than London or Paris did at the time.
What actually happened was that the natives caught old-world diseases from the earliest explorers and colonists, which set off a continent-wide pandemic so virulent that, by a few decades later when the European settlers really started showing up in earnest, something like 90-99% of them were dead and their towns had been reclaimed by nature.
Two things:
Native peoples very much built buildings.
Lots of where towns are now in the south and in the plains weren’t prairie as is commonly thought, they were lowlands populated with bamboo.
TIL not all bamboo is from Asia. Is there a good/easy way to tell Arundinaria apart from invasive bamboo? There’s a vacant lot near my house with a ton of bamboo on it, and your comment gives me a slim hope that it might be something other than a noxious weed that needs remediation.
ok. So just to be clear we just care about if there are technically more trees like saplings in tree farms than any type of environmental thing yeah?
You must realize terrible stuff was happening over that time period too. Yes, there is a ton of regression happening right now, but compared to any other time in history some things are better some are worse. One can probably select any two points in modern history and say the same. There are always great and terrible things happening.
I think it depends how we slice it. last century compared to previous. yeah will take this century. this quarter century to the quarter century before. Ill take before. I mean if we are at the tail of of a falling post world war 2 blip that is not a great thing.
People said the same we can’t fix it about the ozone layer.
But it was still done. Regulations were put in place and corporations were made to comply.
Tje only place that still happens is here in Europe, and I’m afraid that might begin to deminish soon.
Yes
We didn’t start the fire was written for this exact reason. Billy Joel was talking to someone 20 years younger than him who said that when he was 20 more stuff had happened than when Billy Joel was 20, so he just started listing all the stuff that had happened before he was 20 and then expanded it into the song.
If only Fall Out Boy wrote the update better.
My take is that everything was worse back in the day, except for two things: climate change due to an unprecedented rate of global warming, and the ability to bomb ourselves out of existence with nuclear weapons, which simply did not exist before 1945. I worry about the first more than the second.
I’m not in my 60s or 70s but people that age probably remember practising what to do if a nuke lands. This went on for decades.
It used to be a lot worse for the vast majority
This is actually one of the best times in human history.
Not anymore. Conflict around the world has statistically shot way up. There’s also a significant increase in political polarisation around the world.
If you’re comparing to a decade ago, yes. However, even with the increased number of wars, it is still more peaceful than before 1945.
Not more peaceful than 1945. The way things are going to total death toll of war will become comparable to WWII.
But between WWII and 2016 we have seen a decline of conflict. Now we’re seeing an incredibly steep increase.
I question that. In colonial times and in tribal times, there were huge amounts of conflicts. And conflicts is only a tiny part of how the world is running. Slavery, human rights, minority treatment, just laws, poverty, standard of living, etc. On average world wide, we are far better off. The majority of the people in the first world have luxuries that only kings and nobles used to have.
Between the end of World War 2 and 2016 the world has seen a steady and significant decline in global conflict.
Immediately after 2016 that statistic has been shooting upward rather steeply.
Those conflicts didn’t have drone strikes though
You’re right on both counts.
Like most things though it depends what metric you’re using.
Access to medical care for example is better than its ever been.
Access to medical care for example is better than its ever been.
Only in specific parts of the world. Other parts have always been behind, or straight up non-existent, and in one country access to medical care is actually getting worse when it really has no reason to.
I don’t really understand. Some places may have less medical care than others but it’s still better than it’s ever been in those places.
Exactly how?
Pick a metric of badness like rates of war death, childhood mortality, communicable disease, or extreme poverty.
They’re all low now compared to most points we can estimate in human history. Look at an interval of a decade instead of a year to smooth out spikes from relatively small events.
Over half a million people have died in the Gaza and Ukraine wars, and that’s terrible. It seems like now is pretty bad as far as war goes. World War 1 killed about 20 million. World War 2 killed about 80 million. The perspective is staggering.
A couple centuries ago, half of all children died before adulthood. Now it’s 4.4%. One in 20 children not surviving their childhood is certainly tragic, but far less so than one in two.
All people will die, so does it really matter if its sooner than later? When the prospects of actually living are under the global control of the few? Their chances of having food, a stable climate, and freedom are getting reduced every year? When they will likely face servitude to those with wealth, a surveillance state, mass incarcerations, and if lucky simply become a wage slave?
Twenty years ago I might have agreed with you based on statistics. Now I don’t think so.
Since you mentioned infant mortality, for the first time in twenty years the rate is getting worse. Worth noting that in the US Mortality rates are especially high in states where laws were passed to restrict abortions after overturning Roe V Wade. In Mississippi there was actually an emergency declared when the rate nearly hit 10%. It skews the statistics, but the point is that people are making horrible decisions.
This is not the US alone, although they are leading the way in misinformation, anti science, and populism for power. Its a global phenomenon, and does not bode well for people at all. Diseases are coming back, war is back, and the consequences of global energy and food dependence are extreme compared to the past.
Globally, it is estimated that about 7 million people will die prematurely every year from air quality alone. That means in just 3 years, more people will die from breathing than in WWI. And we are not doing anything about it, in fact globally it is just getting worse.
We have breached the boundaries of climate change, freshwater use, ocean acidification, and biological diversity. There has never been a worse time on the planet than right now.
Edit: this doesnt even begin to cover the issues of chemical persistence or plastics in nearly everything including our bodies. Nevermind PFA’s and other forever chemicals.
Part of the issue isn’t necessarily any one of these things, but seen as a whole, there is little to no will to fix it. Profit matters, and those with the most profit are setting the rules.
All people will die, so does it really matter if its sooner than later?
I think most people would rather die at the age of 90 from heart failure than at the age of 9 from smallpox.
Their chances of having food, a stable climate, and freedom are getting reduced every year?
Those are valid concerns, but the trends were moving in the right direction until recently. I’m concerned about backsliding too, but it’s not clear whether we’re seeing a long-term reversal or just some turbulence.
We have breached the boundaries of climate change, freshwater use, ocean acidification, and biological diversity. There has never been a worse time on the planet than right now.
This is a picture of the Cuyahoga River on fire in 1969. Here’s a look at the air in Los Angeles in the 1970s.
We’ve come a long way on environmental protection in the past half century. We still have a long way to go, and as with other issues, there has been some backsliding. I’m pretty optimistic about the long-term trend.
Believe me, I like your optimism.
We’ve come a long way on environmental protection in the past half century
If you are talking about the US, it is actively dismantling those protections now. I mean look at the fact that they are still growing corn(!) to make ethanol to put in gasoline. What a waste.
I agree LA looks better now than in the 70’s, but even with all the effort it still is US’s smoggiest city for 25th time in 26 years.
But look at all the other places were the pollution is dust and heavy metals like the Salt Lake in Utah. All the water diversion, and climate change, is going to come to a reckoning. Look at the water system that feeds LA (Owens Lake), it is the largest human-caused dust storm sources in the United States. They are trying to fix it, but what can be done?
This is happening all over the world. I think we are well beyond being able to mitigate this.
Warmest artic temperatures ever, with more than double the global rate of temperature change. Melting of permafrost and ice at an all time record high rate. Lowest sea level ice, June snow cover extent is half what it was 60 years ago. 200 Alaskan watersheds are now orange with iron and other elements that are polluting them that were not there a decade ago. Whole communities are being relocated and we are just starting to see the effects. Something like 250 million people will be displaced from rising water by 2050. 45 million people were displaced in 2024 from heat, with a projection of 2.8 billion likely to become heat refuges. The worst part of both of those things is that also means crops are going to be displaced too.
I believe all of this will cause the wealthiest to see opportunity to extract and plunder instead of understanding the implications and trying to mitigate it. I believe people will be convinced that they need to take it before someone else does. People seem extremely stupid or selfish. It makes me wonder if we aren’t seeing long term covid brain at this point.
We could go on and on with environmental problems, and we are stating to see impacts like I mentioned before:
Youth and Young Adult mortality rates are increasing. Heat related mortality for people over 65 is up 85% since 2017. That’s half a million people a year from it being too hot to live where they grew up.
I think we are way past the point of no return.
before internet, local problems remained local though. now everything is kind of in the same pot. I guess there are objectively less problems now than before, but before individual people had to deal with only local problems and maybe some from further away if things got really bad there.
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