Have you seen The Boys? There’s an actual fan club of Homelander. The series creators are trying to cut it down because it’s the exact opposite of the message they try to bring. Vilans are people’s new heroes now. Like Trump and Musk for example.
The Boys is great because it explores how horrific a world like that would be, and how close that world is to ours.
Thankfully I’ve not seen people fawning over Home Lander. I see people say they exist, but I do wonder if that’s drive-by people mistaking fandom of the show for fandom of Homelander.
The guy is a forever child whose insecurity makes him a monster. You’re shown how all his
“romantic” relationships are about him being mothered. He literally keeps breast milk in his fridge. He’s an infant given god like powers. There is nothing inspirational about him.
I love his character, the actor really does a great job. But he’s super evil. He’s a great representation to the real world, as many people think there’s no collateral damage too great to justify reaching their goal. Dehumanizing others, committing war crimes, hunger for power, forcing their beliefs onto others. I despise people like that.
But there are people who think otherwise: See this
I guess I wasn’t trying to say there’s absolutely no-one that idolises homelander. Some people watch Star Wars and want Darth Vader to win. There’s not many of them, and social media tends to amplify the “edge lord” opinions.
Just that I thought sometimes pearl-clutchers can see people enjoying something that contains horrific aspects and interpret it as meaning those people support horrific things.
By dehumanizing them you’re no different. Treat your enemies with respect, they are human too, just dumb pieces of shit. Don’t lower yourself to their level. Be better than them.
Tbh, I do agree with him that we shouldn’t dehumanize. Fascists are humans, who deserve to be put down. There. Easy. No dehumanization, and you can still say that they deserve bullets blowing their brains out the back their heads.
The thing is, I’m not pleading for their respect. I won’t get it. I just won’t lower myself to their level so I will not grant them the argument “see, they are doing the same”.
If you do not understand the principles of defending the humanity you love from the people who want to destroy it, then you are WORSE THAN USELESS. These people are actively destroying society and the very “humanity” you want to preserve… yet you still won’t attack them??
You are nothing but a useful idiot to fascists with that kind of pacifist attitude… Literally. You are talking down others from action against the things you want to defend from… You’re actively a turncoat against the humanity you want to defend. Seriously, pathetic.
You equating someone who calls a Nazi sub-human with a nazi themselves DOES make you pathetic. You ARE pathetic for failing to realize that the Nazis BETRAY humnaity… yet you still want to be civil with them??
You are a pathetic failure of the Paradox of Tolerance when you tolerate Nazis existing but do not tolerate people calling nazis names… Genuinely, you have a child’s outlook on life.
“Just as bad”, yea, to someone whs too fucking stupid to understand how ugly self-defense can get… Again, you are a pathetic child.
No, people who sherk their humanity, willingly and emphatically, do NOT deserve to be humanized. Yes, we need to remember they are humans, but they are terrible people who choose to be terrible. Only a fucking moron or a fellow terrible person thinks they deserve to be treated better than they treat others.
That’s the excuse for Hamas to commit terrorist acts on Israel. It’s also the excuse for Israel to commit the worst war crimes of this century by far. Lowering yourself to the level of the enemy makes you just as bad. Be better.
I think very little of them, I’m disgusted by them, I hate them with everything I’ve got, but I will not dehumanize them or justify crimes against humanity against them. No matter whether they would do that to me. They deserve consequences for their behavior. They need to be sentenced for their crimes. Legally, democratically, within the law. If we don’t, how are we any different? They think they are better humans than others, you know, like the nazis. Untermenschen. If you’re not a nazi, fascist or racist, you won’t dehumanize others.
No matter who it is, people need to realize who are defending themselves and who are going out of their way to commit offenses. When it comes to politics, people conveniently forget bad people DO exist, on all sides.
It DOES NOT MATTER what is currently going on in the world. It DOES NOT MATTER if they claim to be humans. It DOES NOT MATTER if you want to continue calling them humans.
What you need to learn is… these are humans who willingly betray the humanity you claim to want to defend… yet you continue to defend them, all in the name of some childish idea of “justice”.
I agree things should be done legally where possible. What you need to learn is the law is not good! It doesn’t create justice. It doesn’t create peace. They’re just rules people are supposed to follow, good or bad.
What DOES matter, is people like you constantly running interference for literally and directly evil people. Stop equating people defending themselves with people who want to commit the offenses. There is a HUGE difference between someone doing something bad to defend their own freedom, and someone who wants to go out of their way to remove someone else’s freedom.
You can treat them as humanely as you want. What you NEED to learn is… they are enemies of the humanity you want to protect! Literally, directly, enemies of humanity. Why do you insist on equating them with people on defense?
This is a topic about literal nazis, remember. Why do you equate people calling Nazis sub-human with nazis, when nazis are the ones who DIRECTLY AND WILLINGLY betray humanity? Why are you failing to defend humanity?
And if they dont want to be people in any of the ways that matter to me, calling them people eould be profoundly disrespectful. They aren’t me abd dont have my values and treating them like they are/do would be disrespectful.
human
Nobodys arguing that. I just don’t see why it gets brought up. Plenty of people arent human-dogs cats elephants octopi corvids cetaceans. If they’re not lesser for not being human, i dont see why it’s something i should be eating myself out about.
dumb pieces of shit
There’s actually more to it than that. Plenty if dumb pieces of shit aren’t fascists. In some older forms, that imo inevitably went extinct because of the nature of what it is, they didnt even need to be stupid.
don’t lower yourself. Be better
Thanks, got it handled. Take your own advice and don’t be super reactionary and tribalistic while reducing everything to shallow aesthetics. Try rigorous examination if the things you believe and elaboration, rather than reflexive gut reaction, or you really are not so different from them.
If i am able to switch one word in a 3 sentence comment in order make it exactly sound like what a Fascist would say, it is probably not a very anti fascist thing.
Dehumanizing the outgroup is very fascist.
Everything accusation is a confession. Why would this one be any different?
If you have meaningful criteria for what personhood is and why it matters-criteria constructed with intellectual honestly to have some actual utility and not just a desire to avoid awkward questions-it’s very likely a fascist does not meet them.
Is chat gpt a person? Why or why not? If yes, what’s the earliest model that counted, why did previous models not?
Odds are most of your answers for not are either silly ‘its not even made of meat’ and kind of offensive (you only think i have value because im meaty and delicious? Wtf? Is steak a person? Tofu?) or apply at least somewhat to fascists, or at least to every fascist’s aspiration.
Is chatgpt a person? Maybe, if you find the right definition.
Is chatgpt a human? No.
Is a Fascist a person? Maybe not if you find the right definition.
Is a Fascist a human? For sure.
I have no problems fighting fascists, if needed with strong violence.
The moment we throw then into a camp for extermination is the point i am going to fight the new fascists.
You can sate your sadism on fantasy, no need to become the monster yourself.
Cool, which one(s) do you use? You’re avoiding the question. Which is silly. The point was to highlight the space. Why does this make you so uncomfortable?
person? Skipping that. Human? Of course!
Cool so say hi to henrietta for me. I don’t see why thats a philosophically important thing; being a particular species of ape. Privileging it when there are obviously other intelligent species in the world, other people, seems incredibly bigoted and shitty.
that would make me a fascist!
Industrialized violence is not what makes a fascist a fascist. It is a philosophy. A very stupid one, but a philosophy. Plenty of people before and after gabriel d’anunzio have done plenty of horrible things without being fascists. Fascism is not a synonym for ‘thing i don’t like’, for fuck’s sake. And that sentence is one I’ve heard a fascist say, but apparently you need fucking reminding.
save the nazis!
So i am actually down to have this discussion, albeit from pretty close to team ‘and their families: if it’s old enough to talk it’s old enough to hang’ but you’re avoiding potentially uncomfortable questions because they make you uncomfortable, and i would ask more intellectual honesty from you than you’re willing to give yourself. Which seems rude, so lets not.
It is ok, you win the contest. If you win back your country have fun doing alle the horrible shit to “things” that are not quite human. You have no problem with industrialized violence because thats what america is.
You’re thay afraid to engage, but still want to have a say about some shit you’re not even willing to think about? What the fuck? Like seriously, you’re literally not willing to think about it, to engage with the idea, and youre telling me what to think feel and do on the topic. That is some profound fucking arrogance.
And kind of fascist, reactionary at minimum.
have fun doing all the horrible things
Fingers crossed i can, and am still around. That would be so lucky. Or, you know; the living will envy the dead by that point. Whichever.
your country
Never felt welcome or at home here, despite being born here. States not my preferred end point.
Its the same way all of silicon valley read ‘snow crash’ and was like ‘yeah! Metaverse! Apartheid south african enclaves in los angeles! Mind vontrol virus! Christofascism!’
They can’t, like, read for the editorial content of what the author’s saying. It starts and ends with imagining literal facts.
At the same time, I like that the antagonists of the boys are people with nuance.
The best shows and stories are ones where both sides believe they are doing what is best for everyone, but disagree on what’s best for everyone… Like Thanos. His idea was good in concept, his execution? Not great.
Man, bit of a tangent, but even as a fast thought experiment, Thanos’s idea was bad. Just his motivation was (debatably) good.
The problem is, the vast majority of species populations can easily double in a generation, given plentiful resources - and plentiful resources was what he was aiming for! Even if everything went exactly as he thought it would, he’s just kicked the can down the road for one generation.
The comics are from long before Trump. (2006-2012) Homelander is just what happens when you give a flawed person Superman powers. That’s the whole premise of the Boys. “What-if superhumans were real people with real flaws?”.
He’s the manifestation of “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
Have you seen The Boys? There’s an actual fan club of Homelander. The series creators are trying to cut it down because it’s the exact opposite of the message they try to bring. Vilans are people’s new heroes now. Like Trump and Musk for example.
The Boys is great because it explores how horrific a world like that would be, and how close that world is to ours.
Thankfully I’ve not seen people fawning over Home Lander. I see people say they exist, but I do wonder if that’s drive-by people mistaking fandom of the show for fandom of Homelander.
The guy is a forever child whose insecurity makes him a monster. You’re shown how all his “romantic” relationships are about him being mothered. He literally keeps breast milk in his fridge. He’s an infant given god like powers. There is nothing inspirational about him.
He’s a great villain though.
I love his character, the actor really does a great job. But he’s super evil. He’s a great representation to the real world, as many people think there’s no collateral damage too great to justify reaching their goal. Dehumanizing others, committing war crimes, hunger for power, forcing their beliefs onto others. I despise people like that.
But there are people who think otherwise: See this
I guess I wasn’t trying to say there’s absolutely no-one that idolises homelander. Some people watch Star Wars and want Darth Vader to win. There’s not many of them, and social media tends to amplify the “edge lord” opinions.
Just that I thought sometimes pearl-clutchers can see people enjoying something that contains horrific aspects and interpret it as meaning those people support horrific things.
Is he doing a great job? I thought he was just portraying himself.
Nah for real, if he’s not a psychopath in real life, he must be a tremendous actor.
Anthony Starr is knocking it out of the park. Amazing performance.
People are stupid
Fascists aren’t people in most of the ways that matter.
They do have viable organs tho, if we wanted to address the shortage in an easy and ethical way.
By dehumanizing them you’re no different. Treat your enemies with respect, they are human too, just dumb pieces of shit. Don’t lower yourself to their level. Be better than them.
Keep pleading for their respect when they have a gun to the back of your head. I’m sure that will work.
Tbh, I do agree with him that we shouldn’t dehumanize. Fascists are humans, who deserve to be put down. There. Easy. No dehumanization, and you can still say that they deserve bullets blowing their brains out the back their heads.
The thing is, I’m not pleading for their respect. I won’t get it. I just won’t lower myself to their level so I will not grant them the argument “see, they are doing the same”.
If you do not understand the principles of defending the humanity you love from the people who want to destroy it, then you are WORSE THAN USELESS. These people are actively destroying society and the very “humanity” you want to preserve… yet you still won’t attack them??
You are nothing but a useful idiot to fascists with that kind of pacifist attitude… Literally. You are talking down others from action against the things you want to defend from… You’re actively a turncoat against the humanity you want to defend. Seriously, pathetic.
Who said I won’t attack them? Of course I would, and have. But within the law, without dehumanizing them.
You call me pathetic, although I’m actively fighting against the far right, oppression and crimes against humanity.
You, on the other hand, show you are just as bad as they are.
You equating someone who calls a Nazi sub-human with a nazi themselves DOES make you pathetic. You ARE pathetic for failing to realize that the Nazis BETRAY humnaity… yet you still want to be civil with them??
You are a pathetic failure of the Paradox of Tolerance when you tolerate Nazis existing but do not tolerate people calling nazis names… Genuinely, you have a child’s outlook on life.
“Just as bad”, yea, to someone whs too fucking stupid to understand how ugly self-defense can get… Again, you are a pathetic child.
lol
their death camps will be perfectly legal
No, people who sherk their humanity, willingly and emphatically, do NOT deserve to be humanized. Yes, we need to remember they are humans, but they are terrible people who choose to be terrible. Only a fucking moron or a fellow terrible person thinks they deserve to be treated better than they treat others.
That’s the excuse for Hamas to commit terrorist acts on Israel. It’s also the excuse for Israel to commit the worst war crimes of this century by far. Lowering yourself to the level of the enemy makes you just as bad. Be better.
I think very little of them, I’m disgusted by them, I hate them with everything I’ve got, but I will not dehumanize them or justify crimes against humanity against them. No matter whether they would do that to me. They deserve consequences for their behavior. They need to be sentenced for their crimes. Legally, democratically, within the law. If we don’t, how are we any different? They think they are better humans than others, you know, like the nazis. Untermenschen. If you’re not a nazi, fascist or racist, you won’t dehumanize others.
No matter who it is, people need to realize who are defending themselves and who are going out of their way to commit offenses. When it comes to politics, people conveniently forget bad people DO exist, on all sides.
It DOES NOT MATTER what is currently going on in the world. It DOES NOT MATTER if they claim to be humans. It DOES NOT MATTER if you want to continue calling them humans.
What you need to learn is… these are humans who willingly betray the humanity you claim to want to defend… yet you continue to defend them, all in the name of some childish idea of “justice”.
I agree things should be done legally where possible. What you need to learn is the law is not good! It doesn’t create justice. It doesn’t create peace. They’re just rules people are supposed to follow, good or bad.
What DOES matter, is people like you constantly running interference for literally and directly evil people. Stop equating people defending themselves with people who want to commit the offenses. There is a HUGE difference between someone doing something bad to defend their own freedom, and someone who wants to go out of their way to remove someone else’s freedom.
You can treat them as humanely as you want. What you NEED to learn is… they are enemies of the humanity you want to protect! Literally, directly, enemies of humanity. Why do you insist on equating them with people on defense?
This is a topic about literal nazis, remember. Why do you equate people calling Nazis sub-human with nazis, when nazis are the ones who DIRECTLY AND WILLINGLY betray humanity? Why are you failing to defend humanity?
Whether they deserve it or not, I won’t dehumanize them; because I don’t want to become someone who dehumanizes others.
I will certainly fight them, I will resist them, but I will not consider them anything but human.
Being a human is very, very different than having humanity. People need to realize these are humans … who willingly betray their humanity.
They are literally and directly enemies of humanity, who need to be treated as such.
Right - fight them! Resist them! But do not let them push you into being inhuman yourself.
Addressed elsewhere downthread.
And if they dont want to be people in any of the ways that matter to me, calling them people eould be profoundly disrespectful. They aren’t me abd dont have my values and treating them like they are/do would be disrespectful.
Nobodys arguing that. I just don’t see why it gets brought up. Plenty of people arent human-dogs cats elephants octopi corvids cetaceans. If they’re not lesser for not being human, i dont see why it’s something i should be eating myself out about.
There’s actually more to it than that. Plenty if dumb pieces of shit aren’t fascists. In some older forms, that imo inevitably went extinct because of the nature of what it is, they didnt even need to be stupid.
Thanks, got it handled. Take your own advice and don’t be super reactionary and tribalistic while reducing everything to shallow aesthetics. Try rigorous examination if the things you believe and elaboration, rather than reflexive gut reaction, or you really are not so different from them.
If i am able to switch one word in a 3 sentence comment in order make it exactly sound like what a Fascist would say, it is probably not a very anti fascist thing. Dehumanizing the outgroup is very fascist.
Everything accusation is a confession. Why would this one be any different?
If you have meaningful criteria for what personhood is and why it matters-criteria constructed with intellectual honestly to have some actual utility and not just a desire to avoid awkward questions-it’s very likely a fascist does not meet them.
Is chat gpt a person? Why or why not? If yes, what’s the earliest model that counted, why did previous models not?
Odds are most of your answers for not are either silly ‘its not even made of meat’ and kind of offensive (you only think i have value because im meaty and delicious? Wtf? Is steak a person? Tofu?) or apply at least somewhat to fascists, or at least to every fascist’s aspiration.
Is chatgpt a person? Maybe, if you find the right definition. Is chatgpt a human? No.
Is a Fascist a person? Maybe not if you find the right definition. Is a Fascist a human? For sure.
I have no problems fighting fascists, if needed with strong violence. The moment we throw then into a camp for extermination is the point i am going to fight the new fascists.
You can sate your sadism on fantasy, no need to become the monster yourself.
Cool, which one(s) do you use? You’re avoiding the question. Which is silly. The point was to highlight the space. Why does this make you so uncomfortable?
Cool so say hi to henrietta for me. I don’t see why thats a philosophically important thing; being a particular species of ape. Privileging it when there are obviously other intelligent species in the world, other people, seems incredibly bigoted and shitty.
Industrialized violence is not what makes a fascist a fascist. It is a philosophy. A very stupid one, but a philosophy. Plenty of people before and after gabriel d’anunzio have done plenty of horrible things without being fascists. Fascism is not a synonym for ‘thing i don’t like’, for fuck’s sake. And that sentence is one I’ve heard a fascist say, but apparently you need fucking reminding.
So i am actually down to have this discussion, albeit from pretty close to team ‘and their families: if it’s old enough to talk it’s old enough to hang’ but you’re avoiding potentially uncomfortable questions because they make you uncomfortable, and i would ask more intellectual honesty from you than you’re willing to give yourself. Which seems rude, so lets not.
It is ok, you win the contest. If you win back your country have fun doing alle the horrible shit to “things” that are not quite human. You have no problem with industrialized violence because thats what america is.
You’re thay afraid to engage, but still want to have a say about some shit you’re not even willing to think about? What the fuck? Like seriously, you’re literally not willing to think about it, to engage with the idea, and youre telling me what to think feel and do on the topic. That is some profound fucking arrogance.
And kind of fascist, reactionary at minimum.
Fingers crossed i can, and am still around. That would be so lucky. Or, you know; the living will envy the dead by that point. Whichever.
Never felt welcome or at home here, despite being born here. States not my preferred end point.
Okay, um, kinda, yes. In large part.
Its the same way all of silicon valley read ‘snow crash’ and was like ‘yeah! Metaverse! Apartheid south african enclaves in los angeles! Mind vontrol virus! Christofascism!’
They can’t, like, read for the editorial content of what the author’s saying. It starts and ends with imagining literal facts.
I blame the total lack of humanuties education.
At the same time, I like that the antagonists of the boys are people with nuance.
The best shows and stories are ones where both sides believe they are doing what is best for everyone, but disagree on what’s best for everyone… Like Thanos. His idea was good in concept, his execution? Not great.
Man, bit of a tangent, but even as a fast thought experiment, Thanos’s idea was bad. Just his motivation was (debatably) good.
The problem is, the vast majority of species populations can easily double in a generation, given plentiful resources - and plentiful resources was what he was aiming for! Even if everything went exactly as he thought it would, he’s just kicked the can down the road for one generation.
Exactly. The concept was sound, that resources were limited and something should be done about that, but the implementation needed so much work.
He imagined a solution for a very real problem, then went straight to making it happen without allowing the solution to undergo any scrutiny.
It’s the only way! Clearly! People just don’t see it like he does! Right?
homelander was based on trump, and they were obviously parodying Conservatives in the show.
The comics are from long before Trump. (2006-2012) Homelander is just what happens when you give a flawed person Superman powers. That’s the whole premise of the Boys. “What-if superhumans were real people with real flaws?”.
He’s the manifestation of “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
Same with so the storm trooper Star Wars stuff that seemed to start around the first time Trump ran.