Oh, Russia was promised NATO wouldn’t expand? Not so much.
The entire rest of your comment is similar Russian drivel. I’m not going to spend any more time with this because your opinion is not founded in logic. “You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.” You have a chip on your shoulder and it’s hindering your understanding.
As I think it was a professor of mine said, international politics is about power, not good. States are always doing things to make themselves more powerful. None of them are good. Some of them are just temporarily doing more evil to gain power than others. Once you look at the world with this point of view, it makes much more sense (though some leaders are just stupid, crazy, or self-obsessed).
Such an agreement was never made," NATO says in a fact page on its website, one of multiple pages that addresses the Russian allegations. “NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949 — and that has never changed.”
In the Tucker interview Putin references the meeting where he asked for membership. The minutes of that meeting could have been published to proof him wrong. In other words Russia was kept out and as an opponent by the choice of Nato.
Besides the wording is that there was no agreement and not that there were no promises. That suggests that Russia’s point of view is not entirely wrong.
As I think it was a professor of mine said, international politics is about power, not good. States are always doing things to make themselves more powerful.
In that light, aren’t Nato’s actions forcing Russia’s hands?
In that light, aren’t Nato’s actions forcing Russia’s hands?
Forcing? No. They’re choosing what they’re doing. There’s plenty of other options for them. In what way were they forced to invade Crimea, and then the rest of Ukraine?
If you’re going to make the “buffer zone” argument, see how that’s decreased since the invasion, not increased, so if that was the goal, is was incredibly stupid. Who would suspect invading a sovereign nation would make other nations less likely to join an alliance against you?
Probably the best option for Russia (not Putin though) would be closer economic ties to Europe. They are their largest trade partner after all. However, Putin wanted to leave a legacy of “restoring the former boarders of the USSR” so he’s destroying the nation he’s supposed to protect to have his legacy that he won’t get anyway.
If you’re going to make the “buffer zone” argument, see how that’s decreased since the invasion, not increased, so if that was the goal, is was incredibly stupid.
Catch 22. But Finland and Sweden were essentially part of Nato by being part of the EU so Russia loses not much and would be much more threatened by Nato in Ukraine.
Probably the best option for Russia (not Putin though) would be closer economic ties to Europe.
I never said the US doesn’t benefit from the war, though they wouldn’t if Russia’s invasion went to plan. Russia thought they could walk in and take over. They clearly thought they could take it all and would gain a lot from owning it; a port in the black sea and the breadbasket of Europe.
Cui bono? That’s more complicated than just “who’s benefitting now.”
Also, again, Putin wanted to cement a legacy. He benefits most if they were successful.
However, now basically everyone except Russia gains from it. China, North Korea, and Iran get to have Russia owe them a lot (We’ll see how that debt is repaid, though I know there’s some particular land China at least wants, but also they love their soft power). Europe gets a significantly weaker Russia threatening them. The US gets to further extend its power. A whole lot of nations get to test weapons (and secretly gain experience) with a new type of warfare.
We can’t look at the past with the understanding we have now and think they knew this would happen though. They made it clear they expected an easy victory.
Of course, Ukraine loses most. Indepted, lost territory and huge amount of death.
China owes Russia a lot because China is the ultimate objective. Russia could fold, have new elections and join Nato.
North Korea wins big, mostly for Russia stopping participation in sanctions. An advantage for Russia.
‘Europe’, or rather Germany loses third most because all profits from industrial products and benefits from cheap energy moves to China. Russia wasn’t threatening, an economic union suggested by Putin was possible.
US wins the most, by far. The US feels threatened by the Eurasian Union even though the EU is deeply linked with the US. Many major advisers argued against Nato expansion and they still did it. What’s their offer to Germany so that Germany accepted the Nato and EU expansion to Ukraine?
We can’t look at the past with the understanding we have now and think they knew this would happen though. They made it clear they expected an easy victory.
They told their soldiers about the easy victory.
Do you think they didn’t know about the Ukraine fortifications built since 2014? Have you seen their faces when they announced the ‘operation’? They had to take Grozny. Why should Kyiv fall in 3 days?
Have you looked at the book? This conflict is in the making for a long time. Putin tried to win over Germany with cheap gas to become part of the West and avoid the conflict but Merkel betrayed him and just took the gas without changing the original goals.
“You disagree with my point of view, so I’m not gonna respond to any of your arguments because my state propaganda told me your point of view is forbidden and ontologically evil and I can automatically discard any discussion about it. Yes, I’m the one whose opinion is founded on logic”
Please explain me how my concerns about the far right rising (arguably pro-russian) and the worries about the welfare state in Europe and my support for a EU-wide military alliance are Russian talking points.
That’s not even remotely close to what I said. Try again, and don’t straw man. I engaged with you, and you repeat easily disprovable nonsense straight from Russian media without any reason to believe it. No proof or logic for why it makes sense.
Alright, you’re just being a Russian mouthpiece.
Oh, Russia was promised NATO wouldn’t expand? Not so much.
The entire rest of your comment is similar Russian drivel. I’m not going to spend any more time with this because your opinion is not founded in logic. “You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.” You have a chip on your shoulder and it’s hindering your understanding.
As I think it was a professor of mine said, international politics is about power, not good. States are always doing things to make themselves more powerful. None of them are good. Some of them are just temporarily doing more evil to gain power than others. Once you look at the world with this point of view, it makes much more sense (though some leaders are just stupid, crazy, or self-obsessed).
In the Tucker interview Putin references the meeting where he asked for membership. The minutes of that meeting could have been published to proof him wrong. In other words Russia was kept out and as an opponent by the choice of Nato.
Besides the wording is that there was no agreement and not that there were no promises. That suggests that Russia’s point of view is not entirely wrong.
In that light, aren’t Nato’s actions forcing Russia’s hands?
Forcing? No. They’re choosing what they’re doing. There’s plenty of other options for them. In what way were they forced to invade Crimea, and then the rest of Ukraine?
If you’re going to make the “buffer zone” argument, see how that’s decreased since the invasion, not increased, so if that was the goal, is was incredibly stupid. Who would suspect invading a sovereign nation would make other nations less likely to join an alliance against you?
Probably the best option for Russia (not Putin though) would be closer economic ties to Europe. They are their largest trade partner after all. However, Putin wanted to leave a legacy of “restoring the former boarders of the USSR” so he’s destroying the nation he’s supposed to protect to have his legacy that he won’t get anyway.
That’s what you were taught in school what the US does.
This book explains how Ukraine is used.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard
Catch 22. But Finland and Sweden were essentially part of Nato by being part of the EU so Russia loses not much and would be much more threatened by Nato in Ukraine.
That’s what Russia did.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard
“In particular, he writes that no Eurasian challenger should emerge that can dominate Eurasia and thus also challenge U.S. global pre-eminence.”
The Ukraine war creates the hate between the EU and Russia that prevents that emergence. Russia would win so much more if it were part of the EU.
Cui bono?
I never said the US doesn’t benefit from the war, though they wouldn’t if Russia’s invasion went to plan. Russia thought they could walk in and take over. They clearly thought they could take it all and would gain a lot from owning it; a port in the black sea and the breadbasket of Europe.
Cui bono? That’s more complicated than just “who’s benefitting now.”
Also, again, Putin wanted to cement a legacy. He benefits most if they were successful.
However, now basically everyone except Russia gains from it. China, North Korea, and Iran get to have Russia owe them a lot (We’ll see how that debt is repaid, though I know there’s some particular land China at least wants, but also they love their soft power). Europe gets a significantly weaker Russia threatening them. The US gets to further extend its power. A whole lot of nations get to test weapons (and secretly gain experience) with a new type of warfare.
We can’t look at the past with the understanding we have now and think they knew this would happen though. They made it clear they expected an easy victory.
Russia loses second most, with not much to win. 30% more wheat production is not a reason for war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wheat_production
Of course, Ukraine loses most. Indepted, lost territory and huge amount of death.
China owes Russia a lot because China is the ultimate objective. Russia could fold, have new elections and join Nato.
North Korea wins big, mostly for Russia stopping participation in sanctions. An advantage for Russia.
‘Europe’, or rather Germany loses third most because all profits from industrial products and benefits from cheap energy moves to China. Russia wasn’t threatening, an economic union suggested by Putin was possible.
US wins the most, by far. The US feels threatened by the Eurasian Union even though the EU is deeply linked with the US. Many major advisers argued against Nato expansion and they still did it. What’s their offer to Germany so that Germany accepted the Nato and EU expansion to Ukraine?
They told their soldiers about the easy victory.
Do you think they didn’t know about the Ukraine fortifications built since 2014? Have you seen their faces when they announced the ‘operation’? They had to take Grozny. Why should Kyiv fall in 3 days?
Have you looked at the book? This conflict is in the making for a long time. Putin tried to win over Germany with cheap gas to become part of the West and avoid the conflict but Merkel betrayed him and just took the gas without changing the original goals.
“You disagree with my point of view, so I’m not gonna respond to any of your arguments because my state propaganda told me your point of view is forbidden and ontologically evil and I can automatically discard any discussion about it. Yes, I’m the one whose opinion is founded on logic”
Please explain me how my concerns about the far right rising (arguably pro-russian) and the worries about the welfare state in Europe and my support for a EU-wide military alliance are Russian talking points.
That’s not even remotely close to what I said. Try again, and don’t straw man. I engaged with you, and you repeat easily disprovable nonsense straight from Russian media without any reason to believe it. No proof or logic for why it makes sense.
Again: what part of my second paragraph of the previous comment is a Russian talking point. If it’s so obvious you can definitely explain?