Seriously, what Israel is doing today is no different from what the Nazis did before and at the beginning of World War II, extreme nationalism, illegal expansion, annexation of foreign territory claiming it historically belongs to them, propaganda using the latest technology, terrorizing neighbors, military at the center of society.
AIPAC
Nazism is only outright banned in a few democratic countries. Even in ones where it is, like Germany, there are parties that skirt around it, like AfD. Who are getting uncomfortably popular, BTW.
It’s very hard to actually ban an ideology even in heavily authoritarian countries. Doubly so when it’s something that’s really hard to define, like Fascism. And no, the Ur-fascism paper isn’t even the final word on that subject.
Zionism unlike the Nazis is not a threat to western democracy. They want a Jewish state in the Middle East, which is not part of the West. As long as the West is not involved, it usually does nothing or just some arms export bans on the countries and some sanctions on leaders. Currently that is happening in Sudan, which is about as bad as Gaza, but has really nothing to do with the West. There is nothing about it in the news at least in the West.
The real intressting part is more that the West is not sitting on the sitelines, but is somewhat aiding Israel. It obviously depends on the country and some do not do it at all. However even so, you see Western countries moving away from Israel. All but the US that is.
The only thing that might be “surprising” for some in the support for Israel by Governments in the West (not to be confused with the general population, which just about everywhere seems to be far more anti-Genocide than the politicians) is how it massivelly contrasts which the last decades of talk of Freedom & Democracy from the politicians as well as the long running official posture towards the last bunch of Genocidal Ethno-Fascists - the NAZIs - which was mainly justified on their ethnic cleansing atrocities.
For those who all along were suspicious of the former words being nothing more than self-serving propaganda from some Western nations to excuse them de facto imposing their will on the people of other lands, usually to take their stuff (most commonly, Oil), and the latter being the useful parts of the truth whilst the inconvenient parts (like, for example, how Churchill himself was a Genocider or how the US profited from the War and only really entered it because of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor) were as much as possible not talked about, none of what’s going on is surprising, except perhaps the pleasant surprise of the reactions of the actual population (not the politicians, especially not the governing ones) in several such countries, often going against the will of the power elites and the heavy propaganda being deployed to convince them otherwise (for example, for all the Genocide-support of the UK Government and the BBC, not that long ago there was a demonstration with half a million Britons against the Genocide - think about it: 1.5% of the British population came out in a demonstration which is entirelly for the good of somebody else, not themselves, so 100% a question of Principle).
The politicians in general are and always have been Sociopaths, but on this which is a massive issue of Moral and Principle (it’s hard to come up with a stronger issue of Moral and Principle than the mass murder of children), most of the population are not Sociopaths nor are they following the Sociopaths, even in those countries were they are swamped by pro-Genocide Propaganda, some of which quite subtle and using techniques from Psychology to try and manipulate people’s perceptions.
What Israel is doing nowadays IS different from what the NAZIs did: the Zionists aren’t yet attacking the “superior” races.
The Humanitarianism in Western “Democracies” was always performative, the least democratic the nation the more performative it was, which I why generally you see the most support for Israel in the countries with the least democratic voting systems like the US and the UK (though present day Germany is a bit of an exception to this since they have a mixed voting system with a Proportional Vote component).
Way back in the beginning of NAZIsm the European and American elites loved the NAZIs and their ideas (for example, there is a picture of young British Princess Elizabeth, later Queen Elizabeth, being taught how to do a NAZI salute by her uncle, the then King) and it was only when the NAZIs attacked other Europeans that they turned against the NAZIs. This actually makes lots of sense as the NAZI ideas of the inherent superiority of some over others, especially along ethnic lines, were normalized in early XXth Century American and European society and very popular amongst the old-wealth elites (which naturally saw themselves as inherently superior to the rest, as that explained their higher status and priviledges in their societies - they deserved to be born into wealth because they were superior people)
We’re looking back at the NAZIs from the end of a long track that included a period of propaganda heavilly against them which was necessary to inspire the population to support the war effort against them - in the period betwen then and now all the shit they did came out and none of it was reframed to seem justifiable (as is being done right now for the Zionist Genocide by many politicians and news media), quite the contrary: through some of the most powerful means to do so - dramatic films - we were made to experience and empathize with some of the pain of the victims of the Holocaust, mainly the Jewish (curiously, that of the Roma and Sindi was pretty much ignored) as well as repeatedly made to feel pride in the actions of the men and women that fought against the NAZIs in WWII and in the Resistance movements in places like France (just compare the portrayal of the Resistance Française to how Hamas is being portrayed)
I have little doubt that had the NAZIs just sticked to exterminating “lesser races” (like in the eyes of just about every Racist out there the Zionists are doing), the “pragmatism” (read, treating Principles as secondary to the Economic interests of the elites and themselves) of those in “Democratic” governments would have a lot of them justifying, reframing, denying and excusing the murderous actions of the NAZIs and claiming they didn’t really do a Genocide, same as they do now for the murderous actions of the Zionists.
By the way, this also explains the massive difference in the reaction to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the reaction to the Israeli Genocide in Gaza, even though the latter is thousands of times more murderous for civilians.
The Humanitarianism in Western “Democracies” was always performative, the least democratic the nation the more performative it was, which I why generally you see the most support for Israel in the countries with the least democratic voting systems like the US and the UK (though present day Germany is a bit of an exception to this since they have a mixed voting system with a Proportional Vote component).
I don’t think that there’s any causal link there. New Zealand still doesn’t recognise the Palestinian state and has arguably the most democratic voting system. Australia has just recognised it (same as the UK) but still fund it, and we have a fairly democratic voting system.
True, I’m a bit unsure on that front.
It’s true that the least democratic (in terms of voting systems) of the so-called “Democratic” nations, such as the US, UK and even Canada are invariably amongst the ones whose governments most support Israel even against public opinion, but there are several examples of countries which have supposedly much more democratic voting systems and whose governments still strongly support Israel.
Clearly how close a country is to democratic “perfection” in terms of the allocation of parliamentary representatives matching the choice of the population through their vote, is far from the full picture in terms of explaining the posture of politicians in those countries with regards to this Genocide.
Bestie, China supports Palestine and they are one of the least democratic nations. To say it has any correlation at all is ridiculous. But if you want me to go and compare the democracy index and get you a p-value I’ll do it.
It’s more that I think there are multiple factors, one of which is how much politicians in power represent the will of the people.
For example, a nation being allied or not to the US also seems to infliuence their support or not for Israel whilst it commits a Genocide.
I would be surprised if that p-value is close to 1, but I would also be surprised if it’s close to 0.
Yes, because pissing off the US as an ally is generally an unwanted outcome and they are staunchly pro-Israel?
Except that for nations inside the EU that’s a lot less so than for small nations outside the EU, mainly because the main tools that the US can use to pressure nations are military - which if done against Europe would very likely elicit a reaction similar to that against the Russian invasion and destroy NATO and the entire tapestry of US alliances in the West - and trade (such as Tariffs) which the if the US tries to impose on a single EU nation will, due to EU treaties, treaty elicity a response from the entire EU, a market of 470 million people on the top 25% of wealth in World terms, so that would end up costing a lot more to the US than to said nation.
Whilst it’s totally understandable for small and mid-sized nations which are US allies and outside trade blocks like the EU, to just go along with US foreign policy - even as extreme as supporting a Genocidal state mid-Genocide like this - because they have no other choice, even tiny EU nations do in fact have a choice because the US would have to go against the whole of the EU to significantly hit those nations.
So whilst the likes of New Zeeland pretty much have no other options than to go along with the US on this (at the very least to just shut up and act as if nothing is happenning), the likes of The Netherlands definitelly have other options and yet their politicians have been dragging their feet on stopping support for Israel.
This is probably why all nations which are allies of the US and were almost from the start overtly against Israel and their Genocide are in the EU (such as Spain and the Republic Of Ireland).
All this to say that no one single factor decides it, IMHO.
Today, Christofascism is, if not just strongly allied to Zionist ethnic supremacy, is subservient to it. Biblical passages that validate all Netanyahu actions become the most important biblical passages, for scum like Ted Cruz to say out loud. It’s a common goal to exterminate Islam. The only explanation for the confluence is Zionist money determining elections is also Zionist money determining Christian pastor sermons. It started with rapture absurdity, but it’s now total agreement that Jews are the chosen people and deserve every land claim. The bribery to accept Jewish supremacy does not ever go away, and supposed rapture moment where Jews are supposed to convert to Christianity, will never come.
Gaslighting the right/christofacsits to support Israel is encouraging their violent fascist support that is useful to Israel. Anytime a Jew is harmed in America, media must do 24/7 Zionist/Israel supremacy propaganda, and so the best possible outcome for Zionism.
My interpretation is that for the politicians involved, Religion and Political Ideology are nothing more than the means via which they manipulate other people in order to maximize their own personal upsides - the politicians playing the crowd have zero belief in those things and via their statements in those domains are merely using them as levers to be pulled in the mind of the common people to make them do what is in the interest of the patrons of those politicians.
As far as I can tell just about all that we’re seeing in modern politics is explained by the Sociopaths shamelessly using Tribalism and Religion (neither of which they actually believe in) as tools to move the public in order to achieve things that either make them wealthier or which they are being forced to do because they are being blackmailed by people who have proof of them having commited attrocious deeds in the past.
Unlike for a normal person, for a Sociopath the consequences of their actions being the deaths of tens of thousands of babies are entirelly irrelevant - they couldn’t give a rats arse about the suffering or joy of people who cannot pay them back for them making it happen, and for a Western politician Palestinian babies are definitely in the “whatever we do to them there will never be any payback” class.
All of this shit just feels outrageous and almost unimaginable to us because we’re not Sociopaths or Psychopaths and their way of relating to other people entirelly without feeling or empathy is so alien to us that we instinctivelly do not want to believe human beings will behave like that - for example, even though logically and intellectually I know that Trump doesn’t care for truthfulness or lack of it and just says whatever is convenient for him, and even given all that he has done so far, when I hear the guy there is still a part of me which wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, same as for everybody else out there, and just doesn’t want to accept that somebody doesn’t have a single redeamable trait. This is all me and nothing the guy: my emotional side simply doesn’t want to accept that a person, any person, will have no limits to how far they will harm others for their own personal goals (because that’s entirely outside my own experience), and this even while my intellect has logically conclude that they are indeed like that and even my instincts are ringing alarm bells about “dangerous untrustworthy asshole” from how he moves and talks.
The Neocon movement were all led by Ultra Zionists, and blessed by greatest gift ever of 9/11 for their 7 regimes in 7 years (all Israel resistant nations) war plans. RNC candidates would campaign on Christian (values) supremacy, and DNC on liberal supremacy. GWB campaigned on peace with Iraq. After 9/11, while RNC would loudly chest thump for war calling their DNC opponents weak, DNC always supported the most neocon zionist supremacist candidates with some minority (
DEI) appeal for President, and quiet Neocon Zionism (justified on Apartheid ethnostate having healthcare, education and criminalization of raping Jewish women) liberal supremacism justification for Zionism/Neocon policies. Neocon liberal supremacism is behind Biden’s war on Russia, demonizing Putin’s corruption reforms from previous CIA puppet Yeltsin.Direct warmongering advocacy is very rare in political races, and Trump’s magik skill is “all wars will end because only I can be tough and scary”. So we just vote on what the media tells us are the issues, which tend to minimize Israel/neocon war. The record funded primaries against Democrats by AIPAC were only successful when Israel was not at all spoken out loud. Some other issue/attack was the focus.
Once in office, all money for Israel/neocon war and oligarchy. No money for any pluralism campaign rally cry
The Zionists are in charge of CIA, and CIA is in charge of every democracy. Democracies not sufficiently supportive of NATO/Israel are rogue authoritarian regimes with rigged elections, that need more CIA NGOs, and media takeover, there to help.
I am not sure how correct you are but you are probably more correct than a lot of responses.
Looking at America, obviously Nazism isn’t banned, we have elected a ton of the fuckers.
Capitalist countries rarely enforce their policies on right wing extremism. Fascism is a guard dog of capital they think they can keep leashed. In the 20th century that guard dog was pointed east so that it could harm the communists which threatened capital then. Today that guard dog is used to control resources in west asia and hide the dirtier work of imperialism that the west doesn’t want as seen on their hands. They can’t ban zionism because they need Israel and zionism is foundational to Israel.
Because those same countries were never ideologically opposed to fascism in the first place. America was a major inspiration for Hitler, namely in its jim crow laws and eugenics. Before world war 2, America loved Hitler. And the western powers are the reason why Zionism exists as an influential ideology to begin with. Britain gave the land for zionists to colonize to begin with. All of these same countries also committed the same atrocities themselves when colonizing places like the Americas, Africa, and Asia. Liberal governments have never been opposed to colonialism, genocide, or fascism.
IMO it’s because the western oligarchs are making bank selling military tech to israel.
This is it. Israel is too profitable for them to detox from. They get to test out sick new tech to spy on and abuse their citizens, they get to put pressure on nations in the surrounding area with resources they want, and just the sheer amount of money selling weapons in general.
It’s one of the most lucrative grifting exercises the western nations have ever designed.
I wonder how much the “ignore your genocide” fee is.
Pretty big, when you consider AIPAC* and propaganda. https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=65051
And getting land and other natural resources, likely.
What land? The booby trapped gravel pit that used to be Gaza? Nobody wants that.
Also, climate change isn’t going to be too kind to the area
Why would you say something so devoid of public knowledge or forethought? Settlers want it, because they claim it. Trump is talking about Trump Resort there.
Since other Westerners are paying, it’s not actually a net gain.
Being a Nazi is not only not banned in most countries, in some like the US it’s explicitly legal (i.e. “Freedom of Speech”). That said, it is (kinda) banned in Germany, yet they are still around over here, because you can’t ban people from believing in stuff.
All a state can do is to try and prevent them from gaining too much traction, and I do not feel like Zionism has all that much tbh. Israel’s recent actions are very unpopulat in the west, even though most people are not even affected by them in the slightest. Many of the people who protest them probably have no direct connection to Israel or Gaza. So what’s the goal of a ban even?
I can only speak for Germany, but here an Israeli sniper and alledged murderer fled the country, bacause he is being persecuted for warcrimes, i.e. the murder of civilians. You also cannot call for the extermination of anyone without riscing consequences. This does not prevent people from being Nazis, Zionists or anything else. It just sanctions them for publicly expressing it.
also because legally buying land in, and migrating back to, a country from which your descendants came is not a crime
Because being involved in international politics at the state level has a similarly effect on one’s morals as the One Ring
Well, at least in the US, Israel “donates” money via groups like AIPAC to politicians and scores them lucrative business deals in return for political favors and financial aid to Israel, using taxpayer money.
Which they turn around and give a part of it back to the politicians in their next bribe. It’s massively profitable for both Israel and the US politicians, as well as the military contractors who make the weapons the US “sells” to Israel.
In short, Israel helps US politicians embezzle taxpayer money legally for their personal gain.
This genocide really brought home how brainwashed I was by the likes of AIPAC.
Nazism isn’t “banned” per se, at least in the U.S. as the First Amendment does not allow for viewpoint discrimination, however repugnant a viewpoint might be. But the First Amendment does not protect against cultural, social, or other forms of non-government backlash for those who support disgusting ideologies like Nazism.
So there is no “banning” that could take place of the Zionist viewpoint, if we were to consider it on par with Nazism. By and large in the U.S., Zionism and Nazism are not seen as equally repugnant viewpoints in the cultural landscape, hence the difference in how supporters of these views are treated. Hope that makes sense.
because Nazis was the enemy and declared war on them while Zionists are the west allies.
People are still pretty sorry about the Holocaust, there’s Christian mysticism associated with it, the Middle East is a rough neighborhood and Zionists have used all of those things to great effect.
Just like most “rough neighborhoods” in the States, it is kept that way by the CIA and capital owners (ie, the empire) to uphold the threats of capitalism
What about the space aliens? /s
Are you suggesting this is some fringe conspiracy? Lol. Lmao.
The part where the US contributed to the region sucking is real, although it goes back past the American century as well. The rest sounds (ahem) very Lemmy.
The rest? The part about US cities? Never heard of the crack epidemic, or the MOVE bombings in philli, or the Tulsa massacre, or COINTELPRO? The list goes on.
I get that head-in-sand is easier but this is declassified, [relatively] well known stuff and this isnt even starting with the 21st century
