I love Bernie. I think he’s one of the greatest people we have in this world. That being said it’s about goddamn time. He’s been avoiding saying that for a very very very long time.
As a European, can someone explain to me why Bernie Sanders has never been running for president?
he did in 2016. dems sabotaged him in favour of Hillary
He was also in 2020 primaries. Same deal IIRC
It’s a shame some people still call that genocide a “war”.
It is. How is that bad? A country is doing stuff in another with military force without consent. That’s war. (If prolonged)
No. One country, backed by all the money and weapons of the west, was given land that was stolen from palestine in 1948, then they proceeded to slowly eradicate and remove the palestinian population. Just look at maps of palestine from 1948 to today, and watch the genocides progression.
It’s bad because it suggests two matched belligerents. It’s like the difference between a boxing match with a skill gap, and a boxer violently murdering a child with a pretext. Also the child has been rendered physically and mentally disabled by the boxer’s previous activity. Also the boxer locks the child up and deprives it of food and water and shelter.
Not all that comparableNo it doesn’t suggest matched belligerents. Real life ain’t no sport. Falkland war is also called that.
Falklands war was a boxing match with a skill gap, in my analogy.
No centrist will ever call it a genocide, but people are sure angry that a man who introduced multiple bills to cease or condition weapons sales didn’t say the word as soon as they wanted.
These are the same people who called people trumpers when they said that harris should show some daylight between herself and biden’s “whatever netanyahu-senpai wants” policies.
I saw a horrifying estimate of 680,000 murdered by israel in Gaza. Ten times the official figure. This is almost a third of the pre genocide population. It is a holocaust.
FYI I believe that’s the estimated casualty list.
Confirmed deaths are slightly below 70,000.
Absolutely horrific stuff, still.
That 70k barelly changed since Israel destroyed most of the hospitals in Gaza were the counting was done more than 9 months ago.
You see, that is the number of officially counted and identified dead, so to be counted the actual corpse has to be found (often amongst the rubble of bombed out buildings) in good enough condition to be identified, it has to be brough to a hospital were they do the counting and it has to be actually identified by somebody and against the list of Gaza residents.
For all those things to actually happen to a corpse in a highly urban war zone where entire families are wiped out when 2000lb bombs are dropped on buildings (so, who is going to identify the corpses?) the corpse has to be transported all the way to a hospital within a rubble-strewned city were over 70% of the buildings are destroyed, large parts are occupied by an enemy with a shoot on sight policity and which often targets ambulances, and the aggressor has activelly targetted the very places where the counting of dead is done, all of which by now adds to a very low probability combination, hence why that official number massivelly slowed down its increase around 9 months ago, when Israel destroyed most Gaza hospitals - it was hard enough to have all those events around a corpse happen when Gaza was still mainly intact, barelly occupied and Israel hadn’t been activelly suppressing the counting, and by now is very low probability.
Meanwhile in a letter of a researcher to the Lancet Medical Journal over 6 months ago, they estimated around 200k dead and this was before the man-made famine.
The IDF themselves have recently admitted having killed over 220k people.
All put together means that 600k estimate is very likely to be way closer to reality than the official 70k and might even be lower than reality.
That number is a very conservative estimate.
In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza.
The Lancet vol. 404, Issue 10449 p237-238July 20, 2024
Applying that now would suggest around 300k deaths, close to one in seven Palestinians in Gaza killed by the IDF.
Its difficult to confirm casualties at the bottom of a collapsed apartment blocks in a kill zone.
Yes, but does that not mean every casualty is a death.
There is a big narrative that loves to pick off the left-est of the left people in the US government, and come up with various bullshit reasons to criticize them. You’ll see a bunch of them down below in this thread, being negative about Bernie.
You’ll never hear this kind of argument applied anywhere else. Like, if Beto O’Rourke said Gaza was a genocide, you wouldn’t see all these Lemmy comments saying “TOOK YOU FUCKING LONG ENOUGH YOU PIECE OF SHIT” or whatever. When that handful of countries said they wouldn’t do sporting events with Israel, I didn’t see anyone commenting “YEAH WHERE WAS THIS TWO YEARS AGO WHERE ARE THE FUCKING WAR CRIMES CHARGES” or anything like that. The extensive nitpicking is only aimed at people like AOC and Bernie who are significant leftist voices in government.
If you want to know what Bernie’s been actually saying about Gaza, this is it:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uVDPXtnTXUw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhcSlrJcAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dd4cg-t8j8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_AWLQ4gk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZreokpA_s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRrHfsqg990
And so on. He’s been doing what most of Lemmy would like to see someone in the US Congress doing: Yelling about Israel, what a fucking horror it is, and trying to stop US military aid. This extensive nailbiting about him calling it “ethnic cleansing” instead of “genocide” is just going to get smoothly replaced by these users with some other reason to nailbite about him, definitely not with any enthusiasm or support for him. I guarantee it.
When that handful of countries said they wouldn’t do sporting events with Israel, I didn’t see anyone commenting “YEAH WHERE WAS THIS TWO YEARS AGO WHERE ARE THE FUCKING WAR CRIMES CHARGES” or anything like that.
Then you must not have been paying attention, because that was everywhere here
Yeah, pretty much.
Also:
People get mad at Bernie because they expect better and are disappointed it took so long. No one expects better of Beto.
But even so-
Like, if Beto O’Rourke said Gaza was a genocide, you wouldn’t see all these Lemmy comments saying “TOOK YOU FUCKING LONG ENOUGH YOU PIECE OF SHIT” or whatever.
-you absolutely woud lol
The UN just called it one, Bernie has cover to do it now. His situation changed, so did his actions.
He’s been doing what most of Lemmy would like to see someone in the US Congress doing
He has focused more of his time criticising the Nentayahu government specifically, rather than the fundamental concept of running a settler colony. He has only recently starting naming the full israeli government. He still believes in sending weapons, aid and trade to the occupation ensuring the continued murder of the Palestinians can continue.
is just going to get smoothly replaced by these users with some other reason to nailbite about him
Because ultimately Bernie still supports the conditions that will continue the genocide. He is still a liberal zionist. He will still buy a beachfront property in Gaza once it is cleansed but I guess its ok if he cries the entire time.
He still believes in sending weapons, aid and trade to the occupation ensuring the continued murder of the Palestinians can continue.
Watch the YouTube videos I posted where he is repeatedly introducing bills to stop ensuring exactly that, and yelling with pictures on the floor of the Senate about how important it is.
You’re talking pure shit.
No, his bills were always weasely with what restrictions they placed. They always had easy to reach exceptions that continued the flow of trade to the occupation. They always allowed more Americans to settler in the land and steal homes from the Palestinians.
Bernie never truly has taken an anti-zionist position. He always ultimately props up the settler state. Even in his latest speech he blames the resistance.
Whee look at the goalposts go
Everyone knows if you’re going to get a bill passed in the US Senate, the best thing you can do is include something in them where individuals can’t trade with Israel anymore. Like Cuba. Just cutting off the flow of military aid would be useless and not accomplish anything, unless we included that totally possible and sensible step in addition, and then asked all the senators to vote on it.
I am honestly a little bit surprised to see so many people eager to jump up and provide examples of the type of bad faith argument I was talking about in my original comment.
Why are you making up what I said?
Whee look at the goalposts go
Failing to call it a genocide in 77 years is not moving a goalpost. Its basic human decency
I am honestly a little bit surprised to see so many people eager to jump up and provide examples of the type of bad faith argument I was talking about in my original comment.
Bad faith is what Bernie has done, always blaming Nentanyahu, continuing the flow of any arms, trade and people to the settler state.
Ah yes, who could forget that time he fought to continue the flow of any arms, trade, and people to the settler state. Which bill was that that he supported? What was the exception carved out, how was it carved out? Clearly I’m super clueless on this topic, what year did he introduce the bill? I want to know, maybe you can help me understand. I know there must have been hundreds if not thousands that he introduced, so just focus on one. Tell me.
https://x.com/anna_bahr/status/1950335108864479631
“Offensive” arms only.
What a stupid take. Beto O’Rourke isn’t portraid as a civil rights champion or a leftist, he’s just a democrat. Bernie was supposed to be more, he’s supposed to be the (democratic) socialist, the left, and he’s supposedly a champion of human rights.
Except for Palestine. He reminisced his beautiful Kibbutz during an active genocide to justify it, completely ignoring his hypocrisy of building such a community by brutally stealing Palestinian land.
We don’t expect Beto to say anything, we had higher expectations for Bernie. He and AOC have let us down in our time of greatest need.
Except for Palestine. They are loud and proud about all their support for human rights and fighting for everyone, except for Palestine.
Bernie will finally call it a genocide, but he’ll go with the shifting tide of blaming Netanyahu. He won’t admit that there’s something fundamentally wrong with a religious ethno supremacist genocidal state and that the rot comes from deep within society, because his priority will be to save Jewish ISIS.
Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. Let me know when he says that.
Here we go, everyone.
This is what OP is talking about
He and AOC have let us down in our time of greatest need.
Except for Palestine. They are loud and proud about all their support for human rights and fighting for everyone, except for Palestine.
I feel like there are a whole bunch of YouTube links up in the parent comment that you need to watch
deleted by creator
The bar is in hell
I legitimately have no idea how that man keeps going. Pretty sure I would’ve hung my hat up after the first 3 or 4 decades when things kept getting worse.
Honestly, when you’re fighting for what’s right, it makes it more bearable when it’s hard. There’s not this extensive hesitation or heavy weight, like when you’re struggling with some frustrating task that isn’t really what needs to be done in the first place.
Wow, a big step for Sanders. This shows it is becoming more mainstream to acknowledge the genocide. I know it’s common sense for us here, but mainstream acceptance is extremely important here. A long way to go, but this is good news
Maybe he was waiting for the UN commission to officially call it a genocide.
A few years ago he said “Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic” - this REALLY HELPED criticism be heard at all.
BREAKING NEWS " Sanders calls genocide a “genocide”
Good for Bernie.
yea its been going on since he was like 7 years old. took long enough to say it out loud.
This
Back then maybe technically it wasn’t a genocide just yet, but I recall watching news on tv as an 8 year old, talking about Israeli soldiers shooting and murdering children because they threw rocks at them.
Nothing was done about it
That was over 40 years ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Definitely was a thing then too
If you’re gonna look at a bigger timescale, you’re really asking for a “both sides” argument. Its such a long and complicated conflict.
Yeah that was my undereducated take too. Time to wake up from years of propaganda my friend.
Thanks for the comment. It helped me a lot in changing my view. With al the new information and all the great arguments and the respectful communication…
Look i know that Lemmy is not helpful in educating yourself or even in having good conversations but if it is a topic you are interested in, you might pick up a book about it. I recommend “The hundred years’ war on palestine” by Rashid Khalidi. Very informational also about the shortcomings of the PLO and other palestinian orginanisations.
You do not have to be educated in everything or even anything. When i said what i said i did not mean to insult you. I am only beginning to learn about the history of palestine but it has been eye opening.
Don’t let heated comments and downvotes get to you personally. People are just in rage about all the death and destruction in which the west is more than complicit.
I’m sure his office is getting some phone calls from some very powerful people today
Hopefully they’ll all be politely refused
I’m more concerned about the people who don’t want to condemn genocide than the people who are cautious about using the term.
