What first party solved the issue with PayPal? I literally want to see it burn but I don’t have an alternative.
I don’t understand the PayPal one either.
Who is the ‘first party’ in this case? The banking system as a whole?
If it’s the whole banking system then I’m not sure how that’s solved, because as I understand in the US it’s still not easy to send money to another private individual via the banking system. And there are Venmo and cashapp and such now but they are just other third parties.
Meanwhile in the UK here it has been possible for decades to send money between bank accounts directly, and free. I still use PayPal though, because my use for it isn’t sending money to individuals, it’s being able to buy things online without creating an account and without giving my card details.
Maybe people are thinking in phone terms, and the first party is “Apple” or “Google” and the solution is Apple Pay or Google Wallet?
Thank you for providing a different point of view, I didn’t realize things were so complicated in the united states. In the EU there is a system called iDEAL which iirc is maintained by a collaboration of different banks and lets you pay for stuff online instantly and with zero fee. For sending money person-to-person, there are apps like tikkie that are just a thin wrapper around iDEAL. And in cases where these things don’t work, you can just do a direct bank transfer by typing in the other person’s IBAN in your bank’s app/website. Slightly less convenient, but still nearly instant and zero fee.
Never heard of iDEAL. Wikipedia says its a a Dutch system that was acquired by the “European payments initiative” last year. The EPI just became active as a payment system 1 month ago.
This is VERY much still in development and not at all an established system in the EU.
Not sure about the name of the systems, and I’ve seen them change names a lot over the years
But I think it’s a pretty universal thing in the EU, that you’re able to pay directly using an IBAN, I’ve even seen “direct bank tranfer” in stores that sell across the EU
In Poland we have BLIK. It’s simple, you go to your bank app and generate code, then you write that code and money is transferred. Also you can send money to phone number. That’s very great system, with no fees.
As a german I’ve never heard about iDEAL. The Wikipedia article says that it is mainly used in the netherlands
Ideal is not the same, by any means, as PayPal. Read up.
With ideal you loose your money. Ideal is made from the pov of the bank and the shop selling you stuff. Its almost impossible to claim your money back without the sellers consent.
Tikkie is not the same as PayPal since tikkie only works with EU banks. (and quite possibly at this moment only NL banks) PayPal does not need a bank account. Its also not really a wrapper around ideal but thats another discussion. And mostly a semantic one so lets not go there.
Effe wat meer moeite doen en de kleine lettertjes lezen medenedelander :)
Actually, there’s a better one for Europe. The Payment Services Directive 2 (PSD2) is an EU directive to allow payments to be done through APIs exposed by the bank. It’s essentially a wrapper for a bank transfer. Most new payments companies are just unifying these APIs.
Some counties do it better than others. The UK is very good (with the exception of starling bank). I remember Hungary being a pain.
iDEAL sounds a lot like Bancontact/Payconic in Belgium.
Which doesn’t do everything Paypal does either. Others have mentioned the buyer protection, but there’s also multiple payment methods you can link to it, subscription management, and one-click payments (where it also enters your address for shipping) - and crucially: available worldwide.
Just another US “first world country” exceptions lol
I think it’s that PayPal was one of the firsts to provide a method for collecting credit card transactions electronically.
Before PayPal, you’d often have to visit a website, then call the phone number for the seller to collect payment.
eBay needed paypal because their sellers were often not businesses, just people yardsaling stuff online.
Coincidentally, I interned at a PayPal competitor in 1998 that went under during the bust. We had an electronic interface through MS access, but it was a still a human entering in the CC number into one of those dial pads on our side and then confirming the transaction. I’m sure with all of the concerns around security nowadays that you can understand why that was a terrible long term business model.
Thanks for the context. Here in the UK I never experienced a website that didn’t take payment via credit card directly as a first option - that’s always been there default, with some sites offering PayPal as a second or third way to pay.
And about punching the numbers manually then well, sometimes a bit of Mechanical Turk works just fine lol! :)
I deal with websites today that are optimized for PayPal first with worse second and third options.
A lot of websites with third party vendors rely on PayPal since it is the cheapest account for a seller with international access and PayPal handles the fraud investigation.
I don’t think you’re thinking of the same time frame though
Canada has Interac, Europe has another standard, the US has another standard… I wish they would all just get together and have a single way to do it that works everywhere in the world…
In the meantime: https://www.paypal.com/ca/webapps/mpp/country-worldwide
in the US it’s still not easy to send money to another private individual via the banking system
Bizarre
In Poland for online payments everyone uses Blik. It lets you generate six digit number in your banking app that you then give to the site you’re making payment to. Your banking app then asks you if you want to make the payment with information about how much you pay and to whom. You accept and you’re done, no card details were shared.
In the EU we have SEPA instant transfers
For a global solution you’d want Wise or Revolut or something. Or PayPal, but the others have features PayPal doesn’t. But there are instances where PayPal wins.
But all the different banking systems are still a mess sadly.
Given that banks’ whole thing is transferring money you’d think they’d have got that sorted from the start but no.
My hypothesis on this is they just don’t want to facilitate moving money out of their bank to another one. Moving money between accounts held by the same bank is usually much easier. The major US banks are for-profit businesses, after all.
Alternative hypothesis - US banks aren’t implementing new features because they’re mostly all still running on ancient IBM mainframes.
I’ve heard from people in banking and in health care that regulations around transferring money and health information have not at all caught up to modern technology in the US. They’re tedious and cumbersome, which means thing more more slowly and more haphazardly.
My guess is no one is willing to take on the liability. Any new system that introduces bugs or introduces attack vectors from hackers don’t want to be responsible for any lost money and I’m sure banks/insurance don’t want to take on the risk either.
Magnetic tape and clearing houses for the indefinite future!
Yea, this isn’t US focused. A person working here from the UK told me “They tell us when we go over to expect a nice modern society with a third-world banking system. Oh, and guns.”
Zelle I think.
That’s just a different third party, though.
No? Is it? Isn’t Zelle just like a directory?
Either way it’s owned by the banks. It is the first party solution.
Then I think I was wrong, and you are right.
As someone not from the US I knew of zelle but never used it, and believed it was a direct competitor to Venmo or PayPal.
The reason I thought it was its own thing was because it has its own app, and a catchy silicon-valley-startup type name, and a brand logo, and all of that.
Contrast that to the UK where the ability to send free person-to-person payments has been integrated directly into the banking system for decades, and does not have it’s own brand, or app or anything.
Zelle actually got rid of its app and is now incorporated directly in the banking apps themselves. It’s kind of like a browser extension where it has its own section in the banking app
I don’t know for sure. But I do know that Zelle is the banks’ collective response to venmo.
Me too, me too pall.
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I’m guessing they’re referring to FedNow, which is supposed to be like zelle/venmo but backed by the fed.
That being said it’s only starting to get rolled out and I have yet to see anyone else whose bank offers it.
US only, that’s why PayPal won’t stop existing
What first party solved the issue with PayPal?
iDEAL solved it for countries that participate. For countries that don’t, sadly there’s no good first party solution. Revolut and Transferwise are much better alternatives to paypal tho.
India also has very good and robust online payment infrastructure.
It’s actually mind-boggling that USA hasn’t figures that one out, despite being saviour of capitalism.
We have Zelle, but no one uses it.
In my case and some others, it’s because zelle has a hair-trigger fraud detection algorithm that has frequent false positives that cause huge headaches. It could be excellent but it’s just okay. No one trusts it with substantial sums of money.
Like you said in your initial comment,
International money transfer (with currency exchange) But also I don’t want to give some random website my credit card
Jquery sucks now, compared to pure javascript? Now I feel old.
Yeah, I don’t get it either. I made a store for my website a couple of years ago, and jQuery was crucial for me to handle all the events and triggers. Trying to do it in pure JavaScript looked like a complete nightmare.
Many of the things that jQuery made easy back in the day are now pretty easy with pure js (Ajax calls, improved selectors, programmatic DOM manipulation, etc), and browser support for most JS features is way more standardized.
Granted, your pure JS is likely to be way more verbose to write, making it look more intimidating than jQuery.
That being said. jQuery is performant in modern browsers, and when being delivered compressed and minified is tiny, so if you want to use it, go for it. Anybody who criticizes you or tells you “you should use [x]” for your online store or website is a JS elitist.
jQuery is really only a “bad” choice for big interactive web apps, where frameworks that handle state and routing independently of the DOM are a much better choice.
jQuery is performant in modern browsers, and when being delivered compressed and minified is tiny, so if you want to use it, go for it. Anybody who criticizes you or tells you “you should use [x]” for your online store or website is a JS elitist.
I was huge into jQuery but the “modern” frameworks seem like a complete dumpster fire full of poo to me.
All of this MVCC non-sense, and components and services and bundlers and shit, megabytes of libraries and tons of time spent in the build process, security vulnerabilities in libraries like “hash-dash-framework.js” in the dependency chain, a final output that requires gigabit speed to load in a reasonable timeframe, and still I see the pages developed with Angular making 4 or 5 calls for the same fucking bit of information from the backend.
In many ways you’re correct, the “modern” js toolkit can be a nightmare. I work for a SaaS company that makes emergency management software. I’m pretty proud of our setup. It’s Vue 3, it’s incredibly optimized. We have tree shaking and code splitting, e.g. there’s hundreds of potential JS files you might load using our software, but they will only load when you need them, over a brotli compressed HTTP/2 connection so it really is efficient.
With the amount of data we process through our API and how it’s presented to the client it would be a nightmare to not have Vue for state management and routing, axios for API calls, etc. But many SaaS products certainly aren’t optimized like ours
I just created a new tool for my company, and I opted to leave out jQuery as I wanted to see how it would be without it.
After going through the process I don’t think I’ll use jQuery again unless it is already a dependancy. Vanilla pretty much has everything covered that jQuery made easier, just need to be a bit more verbose in some cases, but I’ve found that typically makes the code easier to read and modify.
No hate if jQuery is your thing though, just if you’re on the fence I’d give vanilla a go and see if it fits your needs!
jQuery is very slept on imo. I think new Gen react heads don’t understand just how much you can do. Iirc the minimized size is also very small.
What’s better than PayPal / what issues does PayPal have? I don’t know any better alternative…
I assume just normal credit card payments online? PayPal started because people were scared to use their card online, but now you get all the same buyer protections and insurance.
How do you send money to friends or businesses with credit card? Is there a paypal card which has your login information printed on it?
just send them money to their bank account. it’s a lot more common in Europe.
I just use a bank transfer
Venmo usually, but many banks have built in cash payment apps too.
I’m 35 and never had a PayPal account and have never felt the need for one
Obviously you can do a SEPA transfer as well, but it’s not instant and you have to type a long number and don’t have a consistently good user experience. Bank apps lack good UX. Stuff like “send this friend 5 bucks again, this is his profile picture” and are a pain to log into.
I don’t say I like paypal or banks, i actually dont like either. But paypal is just more convenient.
Venmo is, afaik, owned by PayPal, although they do a good job to not let on that it’s a PayPal service.
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PayPal stole my money and I’m far from the only case. Venmo is much better, but still provides fundamentally the same service
Which is weird because PayPal has owned Venmo for over a decade
Yep. Dunno what the difference is, but it works much better. Probably the underlying software is just better.
Got bad news for you bud… Same bank.
For a merchant; PayPal fees are quite high, their merchant support is abysmal and you have to be a decent size SME before you get a dedicated account manager.
And dont even get me started on their so called “merchant protection” offer for disputes.
yeah I like paypal and use it a lot
On the enterprise side, we use McAfee/Trellix and we’re pretty much glued to them for endpoint security. Why? Nobody else allows you to write custom YARA rules straight to the IPS engine like Trellix does.
Every other vendor only allows you to use rules they have defined for you and doesn’t give you that low level access. It’s frustrating because their support is dogshit too, but my company has niched itself into a corner.
Only run as an experiment myself but Wazuh can do it apparently: https://documentation.wazuh.com/current/proof-of-concept-guide/detect-malware-yara-integration.html
MDE can do something similar but you’ll need to rewrite your rules which is of course more than suboptimal… https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/defender-xdr/advanced-hunting-overview?view=o365-worldwide
Interesting, never heard of Wazuh until now. That looks closer to what Trellix allows.
The guy in charge of picking endpoint security products (whose team writes these rules) has tried Defender and found it lacking in comparison. Also, that link is about historical search for threat hunting, so I’m not sure if it’s the correct one.
Edit: I just saw the section about writing detections, but that seems to be more of a reactive than proactive approach. It still does the detection from searches.
jQuery
We gonna ignore the crap storm that is JS frameworks, npm packages, and entire superset language to make JS half usable?
Not to mention literally everyone still uses jQuery while pretending not to.
I feel like Jquery is unfairly lumped in here.
While other solutions have eclipsed Jquery, it doesn’t mean it’s in any way bad. Unlike the other products here, it’s still a capable library that solves the tasks it sets out to do. It never became a bloated mess or sold out to the highest bitter.
That being said I wouldn’t really use it today. It doesn’t play that well with modern tooling, and it is extremely easy to write anti patterns into your code. I would recommend either VanillaJS, a web component library like Svelte, or React depending on what you’re trying to do.
Yeah, I though so too. Like, the antiviruses use actively malicious marketing tactics to scare users into giving up their money, paypal is a piece of shit, and flash was a security nightmare. Jquery is allright. If a website uses it and nothing is actively broken, then there really isn’t a reason to replace it.
WinRAR
That’s why you branch out
