Federal immigration agents swarm Minneapolis high school, handcuff staff and fire chemical irritants at students. Safety concerns prompt school closure.
In the meantime, my fellow countrymen, beware of larpers who don’t even live in the US, much less in Minneapolis, trying to whip up rage and get people to fight.
This bears repeating. I’ve seen it in every political thread here on lemmy.world for the last year. Every, single, time, some troll crashes into the thread and promotes escalation and violence. And every time someone takes the bait and gets into an argument, swamping half the visible comment area, effectively pushing out any sane discourse about a smarter way to deal with this. It’s hard to see it happen with such regularity and not imagine this to be calculated and deliberate.
To this I say: let’s treat our political forum spaces like a protest. Stay civil. Call out provocateurs but don’t engage directly. Downvote and report to admins. Freeze these trolls out of the conversation, and let’s keep putting our heads together.
Thank you for saying this. I do not believe any of them are posting in good faith, and when challenged rely on logical fallacies and emotionally charged non-factual or barely factual statements.
They’re here solely to inflame and incite. No other conclusion left to draw.
It might depend on how we define “good faith”, but I think some of them are probably posting in good faith — though good intentions don’t negate the harm they do, of course. I get the sense that some of the people trying to incite violent action are feeling overwhelmed and powerless due to being so far away from what is happening. I say this as someone who isn’t an American, and thus can only spectate with horror as American politics continues going to hell, with ripple effects on the rest of the world.
It’s easy to rile people up when it’s not your neck on the line though. However uncomfortable it is to be spectating what’s happening in the US, you guys have it much worse. It would be nice to imagine that this is the kind of thing that could be solved through one, big push of violent resistance, but with how deep MAGA cronies have gotten their talons into US politics, resistance will necessarily require thinking of the long game. Violent resistance, when deployed unwisely, can end up serving the ends of the oppressor.
I tend to agree. I’m trying my level best to approach the entire situation with as much humanism and empathy as I can muster. That said, I’ve become a bit more bold in asking for honest follow-up from these folks: what’s the plan, what have you done to prepare, what practical things can the rest of us do, and how will you survive the violent uprising you endorse? I’ve watched others try this as well. So far, it’s just been radio silence every time. While not direct evidence, my experience so far is that these troll-like comments strongly resemble bad-faith arguments, as their authors disengage when I attempt to solicit details and/or de-escalate the conversation.
I get the sense that some of the people trying to incite violent action are feeling overwhelmed and powerless due to being so far away from what is happening.
I agree with this, and it shames me that my own humanity is dulled enough by constant challenges to consider it secondary. But a core part of what us anti-fascists actually tend to agree about is that words matter. I’d take it a step further and say that en masse we are individually creating change whether for better or worse, whether we acknowledge we have that power or not.
So when we incite others, we are making the problem bigger even in spite of ourselves, even as much as we claim to want the opposite (a return to sane leadership and at least superficially courteous discourse).
And that’s beyond the obvious logistics: these people arguing for violent resistance never say where or when or how they’d like others to fight, but those of us who have actually been to protests that got heated know it’s not that simple. Agents provocateurs are everywhere, because they want it to get violent, the administration wants to be able to run headlines that paint resistors as disgruntled agitators and hoodlums and troublemakers, not your neighbor or your coworker or your boss. Anything to dehumanize and label “the other”, and violent protests deliver us all up to that end. As soon as we are labeled, we cease to matter.
Compounding this problem, Americans have been firehosed with propaganda and mass manipulation from every direction for over a decade now, including mainstream media. The atmosphere here now is much what I have read of pre-WWII Germany: tight, cautious, foreboding, grim. And angry. Extremely angry. So when I see people who want to light a match to it, it’s almost impossible for me to see that as an act of good faith.
In the meantime, for all the media focus on this unconscionable murder of a citizen just trying to get home (apparently she was shot on the same street she lived) the existing cracks in the administration’s attempts to consolidate power are widening. I’d point you to Heather Cox Richardson, who mentioned in her chat today what the media is downplaying: that the Dems finally pushed through a vote on the healthcare subsidies today, and they got it through on a discharge petition because over a dozen Republicans voted for it in spite of Trump’s threats and Mike Johnson’s best efforts to keep it from a vote. The House is also set to overturn two Trump vetoes (one of which is a Trump revenge veto against Lauren Boebert of Colorado for standing firm on the Epstein files). EDITED to add that they failed to overturn the vetoes, but did get a War Powers Act resolution up for a vote through the Senate, meaning that they will vote on whether further action in Venezuela has to be approved by Congress. This was aided by five Republicans who voted with the Dems.
All of that is a big deal. This complicit Congress, without whom Trump would have nothing, are now working across the aisle on multiple issues in spite of him. Even Minnesota is standing firm and telling the feds that the ICE thug who shot Ms. Good can in fact be charged with murder by the state, and there’s really nothing the feds can do about it. The Supreme Court can only rule on what comes before it; meanwhile, lower courts are overturning his efforts right and left.
In short, he is losing power faster than he can consolidate it, and when it comes right down to it, his goons shot a woman whose only crime was trying to get home from dropping her son off at school. When American beliefs have shifted away from a prevailing wind, it has often been because of a victim like Ms. Good that we can all relate to. Again, the firehose of lies is flooding the media with their alternative narrative, but those videos are circulating faster than they can be shut down – and even the videos only exist because sane individuals were out there blowing whistles to let their neighbors know that ICE was there to begin with. That’s where real change happens, and where true power lies: with the individual.
So yeah. I can’t tell you how bad it is here right now: it is beyond anything I have ever experienced. But resistance is popping up everywhere, and outside of the roughly 20%-25% that are always going to support authoritarian rule in any society, there is no real support for him. That’s another reason why I’d tell people here to incite violence to knock it off: they could actually be part of the growing resistance if they let go of the rage and think about what’s next. Wisdom and rage rarely accomplish the same thing, and we’ve only just started to fight back. Anyone who wants to fight in the street will likely have their opportunity to do so, unfortunately. But right now it will only fuel the oppressor.
Thank you for your courteous reply; I was kind of shocked to see it, honestly. I appreciate it, more than you know.
Seriously, thank you for that writeup. I clung to every word, and it inspired hope.
While the prevailing hivemind narrative is that people are “doing nothing” while Nero plays his fiddle, that’s clearly not actually the case, and inspires me to be way more politically active.
Thank you again for the discourse and taking the time to educate people. You’re doing good work. God bless and stay safe out there. <3
What a mic-drop shutdown of a response. DAMN. Lol!
You’re totally right with that approach. Asking rational questions that bypass kneejerk violence-monkey emotions tends to not get a valid response.
I’m also wary of all these “Well go start a fight or you don’t actually care” posts. They’re typical keyboard-warrior nonsense and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were bots at this point, as there would be a lot of value in flooding every communication platform imaginable with this rhetoric until it does something to legitimize tyranny. This would be trivial for any nation-state or even competent fringe group to pull off.
What a mic-drop shutdown of a response. DAMN. Lol!
Thanks? It’s a rather childish clap-back, so I’ll laugh with you either way if it’s sarcasm or not. ;) That said, I really don’t like the idea that someone that actually knows how to write being accused of being a bot; I won’t stand for AI poisoning legitimate creativity along with the rest.
This would be trivial for any nation-state or even competent fringe group to pull off.
I really try to avoid fringe, conspiracy, magical, or otherwise just-universe-fallacy thinking if I can help it. But the copium on this is very, very real though, which makes rational thought in this area very hard. So I could be dead wrong here. Take this all with all the salt it takes to clear a Michigan freeway in January.
So, I keep combing back to that realization too. I think that chaos is easy to create if you press hard on existing social rifts, and has an outrageously good cost:benefit ratio if you can just inject yourself into everyday discourse from 10,000 miles away.
Haha maybe I was overly enthusiastic, but no it was sincere. :) For some reason the sentiment like “The only reason that stupid clanker can write well is because I wrote well first” just gave me a good laugh LOL.
I really don’t like the idea that someone that actually knows how to write being accused of being a bot; I won’t stand for AI poisoning legitimate creativity along with the rest.
Agreed 100%. I really hate this post-truth Ai situation we find ourselves in, and I worry that accusing people of being bots for being articulate is just another kind of anti-intellectualism we’ll be facing.
(Which is ironic, because I’m very certain you can ask the thing to write poor grammar like an average Internet commenter.)
This bears repeating. I’ve seen it in every political thread here on lemmy.world for the last year. Every, single, time, some troll crashes into the thread and promotes escalation and violence. And every time someone takes the bait and gets into an argument, swamping half the visible comment area, effectively pushing out any sane discourse about a smarter way to deal with this. It’s hard to see it happen with such regularity and not imagine this to be calculated and deliberate.
To this I say: let’s treat our political forum spaces like a protest. Stay civil. Call out provocateurs but don’t engage directly. Downvote and report to admins. Freeze these trolls out of the conversation, and let’s keep putting our heads together.
Thank you for saying this. I do not believe any of them are posting in good faith, and when challenged rely on logical fallacies and emotionally charged non-factual or barely factual statements.
They’re here solely to inflame and incite. No other conclusion left to draw.
It might depend on how we define “good faith”, but I think some of them are probably posting in good faith — though good intentions don’t negate the harm they do, of course. I get the sense that some of the people trying to incite violent action are feeling overwhelmed and powerless due to being so far away from what is happening. I say this as someone who isn’t an American, and thus can only spectate with horror as American politics continues going to hell, with ripple effects on the rest of the world.
It’s easy to rile people up when it’s not your neck on the line though. However uncomfortable it is to be spectating what’s happening in the US, you guys have it much worse. It would be nice to imagine that this is the kind of thing that could be solved through one, big push of violent resistance, but with how deep MAGA cronies have gotten their talons into US politics, resistance will necessarily require thinking of the long game. Violent resistance, when deployed unwisely, can end up serving the ends of the oppressor.
I tend to agree. I’m trying my level best to approach the entire situation with as much humanism and empathy as I can muster. That said, I’ve become a bit more bold in asking for honest follow-up from these folks: what’s the plan, what have you done to prepare, what practical things can the rest of us do, and how will you survive the violent uprising you endorse? I’ve watched others try this as well. So far, it’s just been radio silence every time. While not direct evidence, my experience so far is that these troll-like comments strongly resemble bad-faith arguments, as their authors disengage when I attempt to solicit details and/or de-escalate the conversation.
I agree with this, and it shames me that my own humanity is dulled enough by constant challenges to consider it secondary. But a core part of what us anti-fascists actually tend to agree about is that words matter. I’d take it a step further and say that en masse we are individually creating change whether for better or worse, whether we acknowledge we have that power or not.
So when we incite others, we are making the problem bigger even in spite of ourselves, even as much as we claim to want the opposite (a return to sane leadership and at least superficially courteous discourse).
And that’s beyond the obvious logistics: these people arguing for violent resistance never say where or when or how they’d like others to fight, but those of us who have actually been to protests that got heated know it’s not that simple. Agents provocateurs are everywhere, because they want it to get violent, the administration wants to be able to run headlines that paint resistors as disgruntled agitators and hoodlums and troublemakers, not your neighbor or your coworker or your boss. Anything to dehumanize and label “the other”, and violent protests deliver us all up to that end. As soon as we are labeled, we cease to matter.
Compounding this problem, Americans have been firehosed with propaganda and mass manipulation from every direction for over a decade now, including mainstream media. The atmosphere here now is much what I have read of pre-WWII Germany: tight, cautious, foreboding, grim. And angry. Extremely angry. So when I see people who want to light a match to it, it’s almost impossible for me to see that as an act of good faith.
In the meantime, for all the media focus on this unconscionable murder of a citizen just trying to get home (apparently she was shot on the same street she lived) the existing cracks in the administration’s attempts to consolidate power are widening. I’d point you to Heather Cox Richardson, who mentioned in her chat today what the media is downplaying: that the Dems finally pushed through a vote on the healthcare subsidies today, and they got it through on a discharge petition because over a dozen Republicans voted for it in spite of Trump’s threats and Mike Johnson’s best efforts to keep it from a vote.
The House is also set to overturn two Trump vetoes (one of which is a Trump revenge veto against Lauren Boebert of Colorado for standing firm on the Epstein files).EDITED to add that they failed to overturn the vetoes, but did get a War Powers Act resolution up for a vote through the Senate, meaning that they will vote on whether further action in Venezuela has to be approved by Congress. This was aided by five Republicans who voted with the Dems.All of that is a big deal. This complicit Congress, without whom Trump would have nothing, are now working across the aisle on multiple issues in spite of him. Even Minnesota is standing firm and telling the feds that the ICE thug who shot Ms. Good can in fact be charged with murder by the state, and there’s really nothing the feds can do about it. The Supreme Court can only rule on what comes before it; meanwhile, lower courts are overturning his efforts right and left.
In short, he is losing power faster than he can consolidate it, and when it comes right down to it, his goons shot a woman whose only crime was trying to get home from dropping her son off at school. When American beliefs have shifted away from a prevailing wind, it has often been because of a victim like Ms. Good that we can all relate to. Again, the firehose of lies is flooding the media with their alternative narrative, but those videos are circulating faster than they can be shut down – and even the videos only exist because sane individuals were out there blowing whistles to let their neighbors know that ICE was there to begin with. That’s where real change happens, and where true power lies: with the individual.
So yeah. I can’t tell you how bad it is here right now: it is beyond anything I have ever experienced. But resistance is popping up everywhere, and outside of the roughly 20%-25% that are always going to support authoritarian rule in any society, there is no real support for him. That’s another reason why I’d tell people here to incite violence to knock it off: they could actually be part of the growing resistance if they let go of the rage and think about what’s next. Wisdom and rage rarely accomplish the same thing, and we’ve only just started to fight back. Anyone who wants to fight in the street will likely have their opportunity to do so, unfortunately. But right now it will only fuel the oppressor.
Thank you for your courteous reply; I was kind of shocked to see it, honestly. I appreciate it, more than you know.
Seriously, thank you for that writeup. I clung to every word, and it inspired hope.
While the prevailing hivemind narrative is that people are “doing nothing” while Nero plays his fiddle, that’s clearly not actually the case, and inspires me to be way more politically active.
Thank you again for the discourse and taking the time to educate people. You’re doing good work. God bless and stay safe out there. <3
Are you using AI? Who writes like that?
I’m what AI trained on, fool.
Professionals. Academics. Anyone who’s been to college can write like that. Go get an education.
I do, all the time. I used to on Reddit quite a lot. So, if anything, AI writes like me.
What a mic-drop shutdown of a response. DAMN. Lol!
You’re totally right with that approach. Asking rational questions that bypass kneejerk violence-monkey emotions tends to not get a valid response.
I’m also wary of all these “Well go start a fight or you don’t actually care” posts. They’re typical keyboard-warrior nonsense and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were bots at this point, as there would be a lot of value in flooding every communication platform imaginable with this rhetoric until it does something to legitimize tyranny. This would be trivial for any nation-state or even competent fringe group to pull off.
Thanks? It’s a rather childish clap-back, so I’ll laugh with you either way if it’s sarcasm or not. ;) That said, I really don’t like the idea that someone that actually knows how to write being accused of being a bot; I won’t stand for AI poisoning legitimate creativity along with the rest.
I really try to avoid fringe, conspiracy, magical, or otherwise just-universe-fallacy thinking if I can help it. But the copium on this is very, very real though, which makes rational thought in this area very hard. So I could be dead wrong here. Take this all with all the salt it takes to clear a Michigan freeway in January.
So, I keep combing back to that realization too. I think that chaos is easy to create if you press hard on existing social rifts, and has an outrageously good cost:benefit ratio if you can just inject yourself into everyday discourse from 10,000 miles away.
Haha maybe I was overly enthusiastic, but no it was sincere. :) For some reason the sentiment like “The only reason that stupid clanker can write well is because I wrote well first” just gave me a good laugh LOL.
Agreed 100%. I really hate this post-truth Ai situation we find ourselves in, and I worry that accusing people of being bots for being articulate is just another kind of anti-intellectualism we’ll be facing.
(Which is ironic, because I’m very certain you can ask the thing to write poor grammar like an average Internet commenter.)
I just tell the trolls to address the rising right wing threat in their own country, because wherever they’re from, it’s happening there, too.