Seems like Bambu Lab has a new trick for reducing waste. Rather than a toolchanger like the Prusa XL or the Snapmaker, they’re swapping just the nozzle. As far as I can tell from the video, the printer still has a second nozzle which won’t swap in and out, meaning a print can be run with 7 nozzles (six from the Vortek system, plus the second nozzle in the toolhead). So if you’re using 7 or fewer filaments, no pooping is necessary.
The cool bit here is that they’re using wireless chips in the nozzles to communicate the thermistor data to the printer, so no pin-based connections are needed.
Pretty cool solution, I think. I assume you’d still need a prime tower, but that’s a small amount of waste if they’re eliminating poop from purging the nozzles.
I’m curious to see how they’ll handle calibration, surely the nozzles aren’t all going to be perfectly aligned all the time.
I still don’t get the “It will be so much faster” claim.
Maybe if I am wrong,but with that system the process for a three colour print will be:
- Print the layer with Nozzle A.
- Cut the filament and retract it totally out of the tube. *
- Store Nozzle A
- Grab Nozzle B (can they be preheated?).
- Push the filament all the way into the tube while heating up Nozzle B.
- Print the layer with Nozzle B.
- Cut the filament and retract it totally out of the tube.
- Store Nozzle B.
- Grab Nozzle C.
- Push the filament all the way into the tube while heating up Nozzle C.
- Print the layer with Nozzle C.
- Cut the filament and retract it totally out of the tube.
- Store Nozzle C.
- Grab Nozzle A.
- Print next Layer.
Especially retracting and inserting takes ages - I only own the AMS 1 but I don’t think the 2 is much faster - and the whole process can even that much faster
(*:This is one point where I wonder how well this will work. They basically need to cut directly over the nozzle/hotend to avoid excess. But as heat does go upward filament at this point is usually already reasonably soften. In the current mode of operations this is no issue as “the next filament” pushes it downward into the poop tower anyway. How well this will retract and extrude when BL claims the issue of softened filament is so big that this is the reason why the AMS 2 can’t dry and print at the same time remains to be seen)
While on a full Toolchanger it is:
- Print Layer 1 with Toolhead 1.
- Store Toolhead 1
- Grab Toolhead 2
- Print Layer with Toolhead 2
- Store Toolhead 2
- Grab Toolhead 3
- Print Layer with Toolhead 3
- Store Toolhead 3
- Grab Toolhead 1
- Print next layer.
The only advantage I see with their model is the fact, that if you need more than 4 materials, any AMS like products needs in theory more careful planning unless you use one AMS per Toolchanger.
But with a tool changer the whole “retract and insert” in theory can be done during the time the tool is not used.
The other claim with the pogo pins was funny,though. At least it made Snapmaker publish a clarification of how long their pogo Pins are supposed to last and that they will be easily replaceable. I give them that.
I don’t know if it will be faster than a tool changer (I doubt it, but I suspect the difference will be pretty negligible), but it will be much faster than swapping material the way it has been. Purging the plastic from the nozzle takes a while, especially if swapping between, say, PETG/PCTG and PLA for support purposes. Or PVA for that matter. Basically anything where mixing the filaments can compromise the structural integrity of the result you need additional purging.
The time it takes to retract filament into the AMS and then send out the new is pretty small. The longest part of the process is the purging.
Obviously a tool changer is a solid solution to this problem, but I gotta be honest I’m curious to see how this one plays out. And it never hurts to have more solutions to a problem within the industry.
I am currently unable to time it exactly,but for the AMS 1 I think it was around 30sec. for a full load/unload between cutting and reinserting (which is amongst the most error prone part of filament handling imho). But yeah, purging time is of course even more time consuming - but there is simply zero chance a toolchanger won’t still be faster. (And more flexible)
The major benefit of Bambus approach?
There is literally zero chance of people using third party nozzles in their approach. But yeah, I am also curious to see how it plays out. It might end with a new January-Disaster for Bambu Lab. Or not.
And I find it extremely funny, that the video and blog post is so clearly aimed at Snapmaker. That’s incredibly funny,imho.
That’s a really good point about the nozzles.
CNC mills commonly use tool changers for >20 tool heads, alignment is not a problem.
Who cares? Bambu is proprietary shit that betrayed the community. Nobody should use their products, ever.
Who do you like instead?
Anybody who uses regular open-source firmware and doesn’t try to circumvent copyleft, and especially ones who actively give back to the community. Prusa, Creality, Elegoo, etc. Also, DIY/non-commercial projects like Voron.
I’ve been a big Elegoo fan for a while now. Love my Centauri Carbon! But even Elegoo is starting to go the enshitefication route, with the new printers no longer being open source.
I see why you’d conflate this with enshitetification but it’s not that. The printers are actually getting better, but the competition from Chineses brands who steal open source IP including patented innovations, and fraudulently apply for their own patents with the same content and tie up the company in lawsuits to defend their IP.
It has become such a problem that remaining open source is a losing proposition. Joseph Prusa just put out a blog post explaining this and preparing the community for the upcoming changes to the industry.
What has Creality given the community? A desk full of printer designs that never met promise? I’ve got three.
They haven’t really given anything, but they haven’t tried to take anything away, either. They fall under the clause in my previous comment before the “especially” part.
I’m personally keeping an eye on Prusa. They’re working on a new multi-filament system for their new Core One printer and it might be worth the wait.
It is pricier because it is made in Europe but at least the company has a solid reputation for quality, repairability, consumer respect, and more ethical business practices than whatever enshitification hell Bambu is heading down the road towards.
Be aware that old Joe Prusa even says that open source printing is dead at this point.
So I would expect to see even Prusa locking their new ideas away behind patents.
Not to be that guy but prusa’s latest is not fully open source either
Check out Bondtech Indx and regret buying anything else
This is what Prusa is planning to use on the Prusa Core One.
The picture released by Prusa shows 7 Indx head on a Prusa core one and has been relayed by Bontech.
Sounds kinky
If you’re talking about the MMU3 it’s the same solution they’ve had for their other printers. The only “new” part is the mounting hardware for the Core One. I have one and it’s awesome, but it’s not new.
They might ditch that - they published photos of a Bondtech INDX and the Core One. It might be,that they ditch the MMU3 all together.
They announced that they were working on a new system that would depart from the MMU3 for the core one.
Do you have a source for this? All I could find is information about the MMU3.
It’s mentioned in one of their official videos about the core one on their YouTube channel. They really should put it on their website in written.
I’m thinking more and more that this is a semi-rushed response to Snapmaker having insane success on KS with their U1, more than a goodwill gesture from BL, tbh.
I also struggle seeing the true point of it, depending on what the price ends up being.
Let’s say it lands at 2500-3000€. The H2S will have higher print speed (lighter gantry), fewer movable parts and a thoroughly tested hot end setup at 1150€ without AMS.
1500€ in poop is going to take most people a lifetime to produce, not considering the advanced Vortek system needing maintenance. That’s like 75 full 1 kg rolls of pure poop if you pay 20€ for each.
It will also require at least two AMS units to function fully, both of which are proprietary and useless the day you buy another branded machine.
If you don’t need a heated chamber or the increased print size, you can get away with the P-series for even less money.Add the closed ecosystem to the mix, and I can’t really see any viable reason to wait for the H2C at all…
Am I just being dumb here? I’d genuinely like to knowI think that the problem is that you are being too smart rather than dumb. I think you are grossly overestimating the amount of thought that a good portion of consumers put into their purchases. Don’t forget, people didn’t just buy the cyber truck, many even bought it as a status symbol. Even worse is that some people are still buying them.
From what I read, it’s supposed to have only the one hotend. But perhaps I misread.
The swap-able nozzles are a clever idea. And does have it’s advantages over tool changers. And despite the in house testing Bambu says they have done, it will be interesting to see what happens when you turn such an unproven system loose on all the knuckle dragging, hoof handed, club footed, thumb fingered masses of the world.
But I suspect the price puts it out of the range of most hobbyists. Much like the Prusa XL, this is perhaps aimed at print farms more than the hobbyist.
Yeah, I think it’s very clever, but like you say it will be interesting to see how the system fairs outside a lab environment over time.
And even if it does work flawlessly, there is no way they will price it lower than the H2D which is already outside what I consider reasonable for sporadic home use.If all my dreams come true, the competition heats up and they end up dumping the prices over the board.
Realistically though, I’ll keep an eye on the H2S over the next few months and see if people have issues with it before I give away even more of my hard earned money.My opinion is these printers are aimed a lot more at print farms and other businesses that use 3D printing than the average consumer/hobbyist. And the pricing will reflect that. I think that the X series printers get faded and Bambu keeps the A and P Series printers. The A series for beginners and the cheap bastids like me. The P series then becomes the flagship consumer models. While the H series is the prosumer market. The nozzle swapper is aimed at the heart of print farms where every milligram of waste is money lost.
I’m quite sure Bambu has all the patents locked up and it’s going to be a good while before we will other printers with similar technology.
Snapmaker beat them to it with a much simpler design and it does not have the mechanical connector issue they’re trying to insinuate they have simply because the toolheads are always connected.
Also Bambu has completely lost all trust from everyone by blatantly taking the steps to make it possible for them to force anti-consumer features on their printers down the road through mandatory updates which the printer will refuse to work without. Even if this turns out to be the best system ever, I don’t want anything to do with a printer that must always be online to work and that can one day be suddenly enshittified with something like mandatory subscription fees or filament DRM bullshit.
I definitely wouldn’t say they’ve lost all trust in everyone. Bambu has brought all kinds of innovation to the space as well as spearheaded the whole making it an appliance that just works which brought 3d printing more mainstream than ever. We have a lot to thank Bambu engineers for I’d say.
Nonetheless they deserve to be constantly ridiculed for their closed ecosystem contrary to reprap ethos
A level headed take on Bambu identifying positives and negatives? I must be reading the wrong community.
A1 mini was my first printer and it just worked. It made my foray into 3d printing smooth and enjoyable. I keep it offline now and I’ve registered complaints with Bambu about them walling off their garden. I will unlikely be buying another Bambu machine, but I like the one I’ve got.
Yep, for me my first printer was a Prusa MK3S+. At the time it was definitely the sort of experience you just described, and I jumped on the Prusa Enclosure upgrade to enable ABS. But there were some maintenance frustrations nevertheless that prompted me to get a backup printer.
I went with an Ender 3 V2, and my god that gave me the whole “literally doesn’t work out of the box, buy this mandatory set of aftermarket upgrades and enjoy your continuous maintenance trap” experience.
Never again. I sold that and grabbed an X1C which became my main printer with the Prusa as the backup.
I totally appreciate the value of open source; Linux built my career and I’ve lived and breathed it and the OSS community for the better part of two decades. I also totally appreciate and respect folks who take joy in tinkering with and maintaining their hardware. I’m just not that guy anymore and I’ve transitioned into the “wanting things to just work” phase for most things.
To me, if we can have both closed source options and open source options competing and each surviving — to me similar to say MacOS and Linux — then everyone can benefit; there’s a solution for everyone.
Yep. Bambu has done a lot for the perception of 3D printing in the main stream. They offer good hardware with ease of use that didn’t exist until they appeared. And at a decent price for casual hobbyists/users whether the pure haters like it or not.
***Full disclosure: I own a Mini with AMS Lite and a Prusa Mk3s. My take on Bambu is, “Good hardware with not always very good software and sketchy business practices.” YMMV
They haven’t lost faith. The X1C was the first printer I could recommend to a normal person. And they love it could they have used some printer before no they involved to much tinkering.
Also Bambu has completely lost all trust from everyone
No they haven’t. They’ve lost trust from a lot of the hobbyist community, sure, but they’ve tapped a whole new market. And at the risk of having to hand in my hobbyist badge, the slippery slope argument that closed firmware means they’ll someday require DRM for filament is nonsensical. They know what happens to companies who pull that. And they don’t need it anyway. Plenty of people will exclusively buy their filament anyway since it’s the same company that made their printer. From a business perspective they stand to lose far more than they gain locking down filaments.
Don’t get me wrong, the firmware situation is infuriating. And for those who prefer the 3D printer side of the hobby over the 3D printing side, it’s a non-starter. But the field has expanded and most users aren’t power users now.
I would have to disagree, it’s about the possibility to run my printer using whichever slicer I want - and I prefer orcaslicer to the bambulab offering. Having to jump through hoops and reduced functionality since the firmware update was the reason I took the printers offline and never upgraded. Works faster through LAN as well…
You just touched on why the OC is wrong. You can use it via LAN only, and there’s no way they can disable that. You can also downgrade the firmware. While some of their actions have been concerning, and people should keep their eye on future developments, there’s no need for alarmism.
I’m still stuck with an old firmware. And if I want lan mode with the new firmware I would have to use another app and lose the printing status and direct controls in orca slicer. So if they add fixes and improvements (new build plates, new filaments) I’m still stuck on an old version. That’s not alarmism, that’s a fact.
I’m not sure about new build plates, but new filaments can absolutely be added within a slicer, including the BL slicer.
I’d also be really interested to see if a project like the X1 custom firmware is extended to more devices.
Not sure that project seems dead. I would like if they did an H2D version though.
Yes I’m sure they can. I’m talking more about the selection of the loaded material on the printer itself. Bambulab updated the list through firmware updates and so the slicer already loads the correct profile. It would be of course possible to load any material and set the correct profile in the slicer - but again it’s jumping through hoops.
Isn’t that literally something BambuLab improved upon over every other printer though?
Edit: Also, you totally can on a firmware that works LAN-only before the changes, it’s like the last version before them, at least for the A1-series.
Build plates are just sheet steel with a coating. And Bambu filament is just Sunlu with an RFID tag that isn’t worth the extra cost.
Extra cost? Where are you getting filament? In my country it is very competitively priced at least the refill filament. Even Amazon is maybe a buck cheaper.
I’m not hung up on any one brand. I’ve been doing this long enough to know I can make any cheap filament print well. I watch for sales and I can easily save $5 or more per kilo without needing to buy 10 or more kilos at time. I have 4 kilos of AnyCubic filament I just payed $10 per kilo for. So, yes Bambu filament costs a lot more for no better quality.
Unlike many here, I’m super big on inventory management. Storing large amounts of materials that I have no real immediate use for costs money. Money I can use elsewhere to better effect. Right now, discounting the spools hanging for my Bambu Mini and Prusa Mk3s, I have 6 kilos of new unopened and a few partials that are getting used up.
Yes and no. It‘s about being able to select Special Materials from the Printer After loading to be Synced with the slicer. Happened when they extended the materials range.
2 mouse clicks and I can tell the slicer what filament and color is where on my AMS lite. If you are running a print farm and swapping filaments constantly, that’s maybe one thing. But I have 2 printers, only one of which is a Bambu. And the one spool of Bambu filament I bought demonstrated very clearly to me that the RFID tag is not worth any money to me.
I have to agree. I’m not happy about anything getting locked down, but what they’ve done for the industry in just a few years is absolutely insane.
I was (and still am) quite glad to dump my old bed slinger that I’d spent the previous three years tinkering with and upgrading because despite all the time and effort spent on it, it was still slow and unreliable. With my X1C, I literally don’t even bother checking my prints until it’s time to unload because after 14 months of almost daily use, I can count the number of failed prints on one hand and it prints so well (plus AMS) that I’ve been able to sell prints and recoup everything I paid for the thing.
Even if the company goes to shit in 5-10 years it doesnt matter because they’ve raised the bar quite drastically and everyone else is taking inspiration from it. I can buy a new printer in 2035 from whatever company is consumer friendly at that point, but for now I’m enjoying the hell out of this thing. Parts are cheap, filament is cheap (and not restricted), prints are quality and quick, and it’s always ready to go.
I’ve had all of that from day one with a MK3S+. It just works. I don’t even think about it. Plus your using a slicer that is derived from what I paid for while your money does nothing for me. Adrian Bowyer and RepRap built everything. It would have started in the 1990s if proprietary shit companies like stratasys did not exist. Nothing good comes from selling your right to autonomy and citizenship by inference. The world is falling apart right now because of this exact issue of a lack of big picture ethics. Every decision has consequences. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. I’m a real liberal. You have a right to be wrong, but I’m still going to call stupid stupid.
I still have my Mk3s too. But, there was a a harder learning curve to getting a quality print from that Mk3s than there is to the Mini/AMS combo I have next to it. And casuals want that ease of use. Just unbox, plug it in hang a spool of Bambu branded filament with RFID then slice and print.
Like it or not, few people want to spent time running calibration models and temp towers. Raging against the sea is a losing battle.
Seems like a good way to sell very expensive hot ends.
Not wrong, lol. Cheaper than a bunch of toolheads though, I assume.
Prusa’s 5 toolhead kit costs more than I paid for my X1C with AMS and this doesn’t even include the cost of the printer.
That’s just a Prusa pricing problem though. Check out snapmaker U1. It’s a 4 toolhead system coming in under the x1c price point.
Looks pretty decent and I hope things work out for them with their Kickstarter.
