“”““sideloading””“”, oh look who cant say installing software
“Sideloading” is the “jaywalking” of the mobile space
I do not consider a win, and I will continue applying pressure where I can.
Please share how
Can someone please come out with a phone that’s an actual computer and help stop this nonsense?
Phones cost a lot of money at this point and I’m completely sick of them being some locked down, surveillance ridden pile of crap. A reasonably built one would be able to replace a laptop at this point if it weren’t for these artificial constraints imposed by the stupid fucking suits running things.
There, exacly what you want.
Here’s a more budget one.GPD has been making “mini laptops” for a long while, now they try to make similar gaming handheld.
I’m not sponoered nor I’ve bought this for myself. (yet)Valve should make a Linux phone. Smaller Steam Deck with a modem
I would LOVE a linux phone
furilabs flx1s. I’m using one
https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk/astro-slide-5g
This sounds up your ally
Pretty sure they meant a smartphone with a desktop OS installed on it (eg Linux phones), not just “phone that looks kinda like a laptop but still uses Android”
https://www.www3.planetcom.co.uk/devices-specification
That’s why I recommended this, their devices dual boot Android or Linux. One of their older devices quad boots by default
This isn’t a fly by night operation, it’s got a loyal fanbase, and good hardware and software support. They’ve been manufacturing for a decade, before that this guys were doing PDAs.
Battery life is limited by cell modem drivers being closed source and having to be reverse engineered.
I have been looking into an alternate hybrid radio device using Reticulum. Though with that comes a new less convenient user experience for a lot of apps.
I like the idea of a continuum capable module desktop like canonical and Microsoft promised years ago.
dude. you can just install a custom rom.
As long as your phone model is supported by any custom mod. I have checked compatibility for almost all smartphones I owned, some 7 or 8 through the years.
Not a single one of them was ever supported by a custom mod.
Intentionally non-standard hardware does not get a real custom rom. It’s just a mod of Android which Google can render intentionally incompatible any time they want
still just not gonna update my phone for a while until they’ve for sure have allowed side loading. Got my pixel because it’s just a nice phone, and i can put graphene on it when it’s paid off. Half of my apps are all from f-droid, too.
You cannot install graphene until it is paid off?
Some carriers lock the bootloader until you’ve paid off the phone.
Phones produced for sale through Verizon have a permanently locked bootloader.
Fuck Verizon for this exact reason. Never buy from them direct if you can help it.
Didn’t realize this when switching. Went through a whole kerfuffle to cancel the trade in deal.
Phone agent sounded perplexed when I wanted to keep my old Pixel 7 Pro lol.
Why is that?
Would you be able to change the IMEI as I would have thought those were encoded on the hardware chip. If you could it means they couldn’t blacklist the phone if you stopped paying.
Paying you can spoof it
xfinity locks the bootloader until you get your phone paid off and you call them to get it unlocked
If antitrust was being enforced, Google execs wouldn’t even dream of attempting this bullshit.
Antitrust regulation is probably the easiest way to fix the biggest problems in our society, it is 100% bipartisan, and it is easy to explain to the average US voter. The only group that is against it is the billionaires/ultra wealthy. Instead, politicians are all hyperfocused on culture war mudslinging and bullshit that makes no difference.
Break up Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta (just to start), and watch how the tech industry explodes with innovation again, and the tech billionaire becomes an endangered species. The AI bubble will burst as companies actually need to compete to survive, and thus won’t be burning as much resources on crap that clearly doesn’t work.
I, as the owner of my device, don’t want to wait 24h.
I hope this will popularize the ROM community again. It gradually faded out due to mainstream ROMs having every perk of the custom ROMs but now the custom ROMs can start offering freedom, which no official ROM will offer.
Is there a tap to pay system that works on custom ROMs? I thought those really required SafetyNet/PlayIntegrity/Whatever-it-is-now.
I would rather not give up tap to pay but I will if I have to. It seems like trying to Magisk my way into getting Google Wallet to work would be a PITA.
I, as the owner of my device, don’t want to wait 24h.
then dont. adb is instant
Why would I need a computer to do something that the computer that I already have in my hand can and should do?
bec malware. people get hacked on android and make google look bad.
Because google is so productive about eliminating malware from the play store and all of its scam advertising. This is not about protecting the vulnerable, this is about control and forcing people into their ecosystem.
It’s not side loading. It’s installing software on the device you probably paid multiple thousands for that you no longer own.
Multiple thousands!? No phone isn’t worth that much. Bloody marketing brainwashing people into accepting exorbitant prices for everything.
Multiple thousands!? My phone was like $250
not all people are americans
That’s multiple thousands in some countries
Lol same, I spent $250 on a used pixel 8, threw grapheneos on it the day I got it. Honestly my dream scenario right now is that sailfish let’s me just purchase a sailfish X license for a community port
Congratulations!
To call the install of apps of your choice as «sideloading», means that they have won.
That’s the name of the command, though. It’s
adb sideload. Anything else is installing.As someone else explained, it is not. The command is
adb install.Why did you feel the need to say it, too? You aren’t adding anything.
That’s not even true. If you install an app through adb, the command is
adb install <path/to/app.apk>adb sideload is for installing OTA packages
bs, i did install apks before using
adb sideloadit worksI don’t know if adb sideload will fallback to a regular install, maybe it does as a convenience for people who don’t read the docs? In any case, you said:
That’s the name of the command, though.
And I demonstrated that you’re wrong by linking to the official man page (aka the docs) directly from the master branch of the public git repo. Here’s the relevant part which describes the sideload command:
sideload OTAPACKAGE Sideload the given full OTA package OTAPACKAGE.
idc what those stupid docs say. i know i installed apps with that command before
And I’ve installed apps with
adb install file.apk, your point?the docs about
adb sideloadis wrong. thats my point bec they dont say you can install apps with it
Exactly?..
I’m writing an app that I will distribute only through f-droid. The people I would like to share it with are typical, non-technical android users. Before those changes I could just send them a link to f-droid apk and explain it’s just another app store or send a link to the apk directly and probably most of them would be able to install it. Now I would have to tell them to do all those weird things first, things that look suspicious and that they would not understand the purpose of. I don’t think anyone will be wiling to do it. This is not a win. The effect will be exactly the same - serious limits on distributing apps though alternative channels.
Making users wait 24 hours doesn’t improve security; it’s an anti-competitive change designed to make the Google Play store seem like less of a hassle in comparison.
I can actually see where it can improve security against scammers trying to scam elderly and non-tech savvy people.
- Scammer tries to get someone to install malware from their site
- Victim isn’t familiar with sideloading, but scammer instructs them
- Victim hits the first time 24 hour block and has to restart and wait
- The restart alone breaks contact with the scammer, scam thwarted
For the rest of us that know our way around Android, it’s just a one time annoyance, after completing all the steps to enable sideloading, you won’t have to wait 24 hours anymore.
Scammers almost always install remote desktop app from play store. This is just anti competitiveness…
Do not redeem
This is only the first step, they will keep adding more bullshit like this in the name of security till you end up with a device that’s nothing more than a advertisement terminal for google
It’s going to be effective, but it’s a sad world where you have to create a total nanny state because there exist a subset of users who are INCREDIBLY stupid.
Is it still a subset when it’s the majority?
And to be honest, the level of effort scammers are willing to go through is shocking, and AI’s just making it easier for them.
Anything less than the whole is a subset, yes.
Strictly mathematically even the whole world is a subset of the whole world.
Evidence that any significant percentage of people, never mind the majority, is getting scammed? Then how many of them via app installs?
And to be honest, the level of effort scammers are willing to go through is shocking
Is it? If you live in a country like India, then a single successful scam will be able to pay for years of living expenses
Something about the smartest bears vs the dumbest humans.
It’s sad, but this is the world we live in. It’s constantly disappointing.
But I do want to push back a bit, the people getting scammed are not incredibly stupid, they’re incredibly vulnerable. They’re often people who are generally less tech savvy, but also they’re people who don’t have a lot to lose, it’s a bit counterintuitive, but it’s easier to scam people who take money very seriously.
Lets be real though, currently they already have to blow through 4 other warnings about installing unsigned APK and enabled the browser or file manager to be able to install applications. It’s almost certain if they are that far deep/commited, they are going to call the scammer back if the scammer left a number.
Yes this might allow for a time delay where the scammers number could be disabled if reported by enough people, or someone else to be like “yo this is a scam” if they mentioned it but, I don’t think this is as secure as they are saying it will be. The target audience for this is very unlikely to be thwarted by a time delay. Plus, the scammer will make some excuse about how the warning is just a safety percaucion and doesn’t need to be followed as this is a normal usage of the toggle, and then have them call back after the delay is done.
For clarification: the target audience doesn’t know about the scam, and all they care about is that someone is seemingly willing to assist with an issue or problem they have. Said person knows the solution and they just have to wait for the timer to be done to be able to do said solution. They have no reason of telling others about it (unless they were complaining about googles time delay) as they already got someone who is seemingly able to assist.
Honestly, having to have the user type “I agree that I have verified the application i am trying to install is genuine and not a fraudulent app” or a listbox of checkmarks to toggle in order to enable it would be far more efficient for this case.
Hell take the example image the article on the dev page has and make it into toggles instead and it would work far better than a timer does.
Honestly, having to have the user type “I agree that I have verified the application i am trying to install is genuine and not a fraudulent app”
Ask Other Linus how well that sort of thing (“Yes, do as I say!”) works, LOL!
I agree with you that Google’s anti-competitive time delay BS is likely to be ineffective for its claimed purpose, but frankly, I don’t think any other reasonable (i.e. non-rights-infringing) strategies would be effective either. Honestly, there’s a limit to how much effort you should go through to save idiots from themselves – and how much annoyance you impose on everyone else in the process! – and I think we’ve already hit it.
I have never seen that page before, but that’s hilarious. I somewhat hope that he did that as a demonstration of, hey, someone may do this because it’s hard for me to wrap my head around someone who uses a computer for a living, doing something like that.
Being said, I think that prompt went above and beyond what was needed. At some point you just need to let the user touch the hot stove top… It stated what it was going to do, stated that it was going to be potentially dangerous and unlikely what the user wanted, and then reiterated that it was core essential packages needed for it to run… I don’t know what else they could do there. I would definitely be against adding further restrictions though. If he was willing to type that in, I don’t know what would stop him from doing that, to be honest, Maybe a…" I acknowledge this would break my system…" instead of it being yes-do as I say. But I don’t know.
Being said hard agree there is zero reason that a package like steam should be able to uninstall your desktop., That was definitely a bug or a misconfiguration with the steam package. That was unexcusable. I just think they gave more than enough information of what that would do and he did it anyway.
I firmly agree at some point the ends don’t justify the means and Android has definitely got to that point with unsigned packages prior to making this change., And I don’t think the ends justify the means to implement such a system. And I definitely think there is ulterior motives for implementing it.
I somewhat hope that he did that as a demonstration of, hey, someone may do this because it’s hard for me to wrap my head around someone who uses a computer for a living, doing something like that.
Nope, he genuinely didn’t bother to understand the warning before typing it. He may use computers for a living, but that just means he has a lot of very ingrained Windows bad habits to un-learn.
It was some pretty big Internet drama when it happened and he’s still trying to defend himself from the near-universal lambasting he got for it. Although I included the link just in case, I’m kinda surprised you (being a person tech-savvy enough to be posting on Lemmy) didn’t already hear of it.
He’s actually making a second attempt to switch to Linux right now (four years later), initially picked Pop!_OS again, and had some more problems with it. 🤦 He has a second channel where he posts clips from his podcast, and he keeps whining about how the other people doing it with him are having little to no trouble and he’s just cursed, LOL.
Yeah, I had never heard of it, I generally stray away from video based mediums, but I am a little surprised I didn’t come across articles for it, I can only assume that none of the creators I followed covered it.
Although it was kind of funny to see the beginning of that second video, him still trying to do damage control, it looked for a second like he was going to agree that he had screwed up that install because he said it was 100% his fault and then he Backtracked and said that it wasn’t his fault and I’m like so close lol.
Honestly, having to have the user type “I agree that I have verified the application i am trying to install is genuine and not a fraudulent app”
Yeah, this would be the most promising approach IMO. Whenever I was forced to write something, I did pay more attention to what that said than if I ticked a box next to it.
Maybe even have them write “I am not instructed to install this app by someone else. I am aware that following instructions to install an app this way often have fraudulent intentions”.
(Also if the language was changed recently, it should ask to write it in all languages that were set within the last 14 days or so. Otherwise the scammer will have them switch the language so they don’t understand what they’re writing)
Sadly, there’s truth in everything you say. Scammers are gonna be scammers, and they’ll just find a new technique plus the long standing social engineering to continue their efforts to rip people off of whatever they can.
Still, it’s something in the middleground, to help grandma be less likely to get scammed, while also giving power users an out and way to keep using their devices the way they want.
I bet they will end up having granny use adb over WebUSB a la GrapheneOS
I’d believe that if most Pig Butchering scams weren’t using apps from Google Play already.
Fair enough, you have a point. Although, I do think the developer verification thing will make it easier for Google to weed out bad actor developers altogether from the Play Store.
Sure there’s no perfect solution, but at least they’re trying to make it a lot more difficult for the scammers out there, while still leaving power users a path to keep using Android the way we want.
I think it is absolutely delusional to assume any of this actually has anything to do with security or safety of users. Google just wants more power and control over, well, everything they can get.
The problem with this is that most of the apps used in scams are already on the play store. I haven’t ever seen a scam which requests the user to download a third party app, although I’m sure it’s happened on occasion.
My point is that this won’t stop most scams, and primarily cause annoyance for actual power users.
Solution in search of a problem?
I have never seen a scam call involving sideloading an app on a phone… Why would they whenTeamViwer is in the Google app store?
Fuck I dunno, I haven’t used the Play Store since Covid lockdown. I rather prefer to sideload most apps and avoid Google for the most part anyways.
It is always like this. Make a very anti consumer decision that everyone hates, then tone it down so the half of those people will say “we won”. This is a loss.
Reading the article it looks like they found a decent middle ground. It lays out how the steps help prevent people from getting scammed.
The middle ground is the middle ground between user freedom and corporate control. Which is not a spectrum you want to be in the middle of.
This is like getting a pay rise that’s below inflation. That’s a pay cut. And this is a loss.
Narrator: No, they did not, in fact, win.
No we didn’t win. This is Google making it harder to install the programs you want, rather than the programs Google wants you to have.
So, we will have to enable developer mode for that? How long before banking and government apps refuse to run if you have “sideloaded” apps installed? This will be the same as not allowing the majority of people to sideload. No win in here, just an advanced strategy from google to make us conform
This is already the case if the developer mode toggle is enabled for some. I have to turn it off any time I’m traveling for work because the app we have to use to file expense reports refuses to run with developer mode enabled.
At that point you should tell your work to get a work only device for you… I always refuse to use my phone for work shit. I used to explain to them why, now I just lie and say my device is too old to have anything installed on it.
lmao, no arguments here. My boss’s phone got bit by the construction site so I think we might finally be getting some movement on that front, at least for anyone who finds themselves in the field doing shit.
For what it’s worth, I don’t generally mind using my phone for work shit because it’s convenient to do so. MDM on android works in a container, so I don’t even care about that if they want to implement it.
Yeah I get the convenience of it.
My dad was complaining out loud to his boss, not requesting anything, just complaining about having to bring two phones with him when he was out and about. So his boss got him a dual-sim work phone lol. The convenience can work out that way as well :)
But then you have to use their shitty non privacy friendly phone or still use two phones.
Yup. I would opt for the use of two phones.
And to be completely honest… Its a bit funny to see people complain about having to carry two phones. I mean I get it, its annoying. Buuuuut, back in the day we used to carry a camera, a cd or cassette walkman and of course the trusty old nokia 3210. And everyone thought it was the height of convenience :D Oh how times have changed lol
Aaaand now I sound like a old man yelling at clouds. I’m gonna go have a nap, I’m exhausted.
Yeah, but I travel for work. I dont want to carry two phones, as the one colpany offers is a shitty samsung a-series and I use graphene on my Pixel
Yeah, totally understandable.
I mentioned to the other guy how my dad got a dual-sim phone (not a shitty one) just by sort of mentioning having to carry two phones. I guess some employers are nicer than others :D
You should NEVER be using work apps on a personal device. EVER.
But what if they starting requiring that you remove the sideloaded apps? We’re getting trapped
Or if you’re rooted, or run something other than your OEM image. I use grapheneos and I’m lucky that my bank doesn’t enforce that like some do. I still can’t use cards to tap with Google wallet because it’s not certified by Google.
I totally agree.
I am so tired of this “slow boil”, bs.
Yeah, if that process wouldn’t need developer mode (or stayed active after disabling it again) that wouldn’t be that bad (still annoying). But having to choose between the ability to install apps or use those apps that only work without developer mode certainly isn’t a win.
Huh I’m unfamiliar with this, but I’ve been running graphene for years and before that lineage
deleted by creator
Riddle me this, why do people use banking apps on mobile devices in the first place? Why put all your financial data in an eggshell just waiting to get dropped or stolen?
Bank cards have had the whole tap to pay thing for quite a while now. I drop my phone, busted. I drop my bank card, it’s fine, I just pick it right back up, and it stays in my wallet unless in use, not in my hand where it’s infinitely more likely to get lost or stolen.
You want a banking app, do so from your home computer, not a fragile mobile device literally designed to fail if it so much as falls out of your hands.
Anyways, riddle me that…
The only thing I use my bank app for is to deposit checks. It can’t be done from the desktop because it needs the phone camera to take photos of the check.
Because they incentivize it. Some banks are better at incentivizing it than others. My bank for example, allows the highest daily limit (by a factor of 5x) if you use the app. Online banking has a lower limit, and cards lower still. I don’t appreciate them holding my own money hostage, but the sad reality we live in precludes me from having enough remaining mental bandwidth and effort reserve to commit it to fighting against it in such an empty and unwinnable battle. Money is a scam anyway.
Money is a scam anyway.
I couldn’t agree more 👍
I don’t know how online banking access is around the world, but here in brazil, they made it completely impractical to use from computers by applying artificial restrictions. Some payment institutions doesn’t even support access from computers anymore. Meanwhile, accessing from the phones has been made easier and less restrictive, so basically everyone has to do banking from the phone. It has even become a popular thing to have a separate “banking phone” to use at home, but many people can’t affort that.
In the US, I largely agree with you. Or use a website from a mobile browser. Different story in different countries where a smartphone might be the only compute the average person has, or where state services are tied to a mobile ID or bank app.
Not saying that should be the case, but if the choice is between running niche FOSS apps and removing yourself from societal benefits structures, I know what most people will pick. That’s the real danger of allowing one company to own an entire ecosystem and have enough power that they have conversations directly with governments about their people instead of with their people.
I have a concrete and very stupid example.
We got a large gift card as an incentive to renew our lease at our current apartment vs moving. The format they sent it in had no physical card and would only work on either online stores or through a service like Google Wallet AKA a banking app on a mobile device as you mentioned.
So to get groceries while waiting on a tax refund (thanks crappy American economy and taxation methods) we had no choice but to connect and use it that way.
Oh, I have a choice alright, I chose to withdraw all my money and cancel my bank account like 11 years ago, because my bank refused to accept my tax return as a direct deposit. TurboTax had to reprocess it and send my return as a paper check after the bank refused a fucking direct deposit!
Besides, when the electricity goes out for two weeks after a hurricane or other natural or manmade disaster, how you gonna get groceries or gasoline with electronic money anyways? Give me a paper check to exchange for paper money, paper money still spends even when the electricity goes out.
If it’s a service that only deals with electronic transfers, well I ain’t signing up, and you can just keep that gift card if it requires an app to even use.
Every single day I assume that tomorrow there might not be electricity, it’s amazing to me that people have come to rely on it so much and assume it’ll always be there.
Ask anyone in Cuba how that’s going right now…
Oh I have lived outside the USA at one point and I’m well aware electricity isn’t magic. There were other places too but Guyana most definitely doesn’t have a stable power grid.
I’m not going to starve my kids over that kind of stance on cash only either though.
I can’t understand why banks are as stupid as they often are. Why would you refuse money from the federal government. What do you think we successfully stole money from the IRS through a direct deposit?
Microsoft appeared to walk back Recall until they suddenly brought it back unannounced and doubled down. So I’ll believe it when I see it
Yeah corpos don’t respect consumers or norms of human dignity, they’ll just do what they want more quietly if you complain. The only real solution is to break up monopolies (ideally for the last several decades).
