In North America, honey bees are an invasive species that cannot effectively pollinate native plants, but compete with native pollinators for resources and spread disease. They only exist here to make money for their owner while degrading our collective environment. When you hear about honey bee colonies collapsing, that is perversely a GOOD THING.
I would do further reading on this, and not just rely on the “hot take” from one progressive youtuber. It’s a lot more nuanced and complicated than this.
Do you have a source on this? First I’ve read about honey bees being invasive.
If the claim were about yellow jackets I would believe it as they are still pollenators but not as effective as honey bees. Not to mention I see way more wasps, hornets and yellow jackets than honey bees combined in a single season. I’ll see maybe one honey bee (if I’m lucky) a year in northern Ohio, but the latter are everywhere up here.
Its much more nuanced than that. Honey Bees are not native, but that does not technically make them invasive by most definitions. Oversaturation on a local ecosystem can push out native bees in some cases (maybe)…
As for the claim about them not being effective pollinators… Ive not come across anything that would make me believe that yet. In fact my understand was that its specifically because theyre good pollinators that they outcompete native species. Without additional information those two statements are incompatible.
They can spread diseases, but my understanding is that this is a result of the conditions the artificial colonies are kept in, not attributed to their inherent nature or biology, and might happen to any species that is subjected to those environments.
“Colony collapses are a good thing” does not pass the smell test in any capacity and I would disregard that opinion without some significant evidence to back it up.
Its much more nuanced than that. Honey Bees are not native, but that does not technically make them invasive by most definitions. Oversaturation on a local ecosystem can push out native bees in some cases (maybe)…
If one simply googles, “Are honey bees an invasive species?” one sees a large number of sources claiming they are. The very article you cite says that:
Ecologists are divided [on whether honey bees are harmful enough to consider "invasive]. Some argue that honey bees behave invasively in certain ecosystems, particularly where hive densities are high and floral resources are scarce. Others emphasize that honey bees are just one of several stressors acting on already imperiled native bee communities, and that focusing solely on honey bees risks oversimplifying a multifactorial problem.
…so it’s hardly a knock-out punch. The article also notes that whether or not they are classified as invasive makes a huge economic difference to a lot of people, which means there is going to be money pressure to keep them classified as non-invasive. But they are non-native, and the harm they do is documented, so whether or not a captured government body classifies them as “invasive” for legal purposes is not super relevant.
As for the claim about them not being effective pollinators… Ive not come across anything that would make me believe that yet. In fact my understand was that its specifically because theyre good pollinators that they outcompete native species. Without additional information those two statements are incompatible.
Google: “honey bee” “buzz pollination” “north america”. Flowers and their pollinators evolve in lockstep. Honey bees cannot perform buzz pollination and their effective pollination rate is a fraction (my memory says less than an eighth).
They can spread diseases, but my understanding is that this is a result of the conditions the artificial colonies are kept in, not attributed to their inherent nature or biology, and might happen to any species that is subjected to those environments.
Okay, but that’s how they exist here. There are not billions of feral honey bees running around, they are agricultural animals. When a wild hive is discovered, a beekeeper quickly comes and takes it for themself. That’s like saying, “Cow’s wouldn’t create toxic run-off in the wild.” So what? That’s not the issue!
The USDA advises people not to keep bees in parks, nature preserves, and other places where the local ecology is important. If that’s not dancing around the issue, I don’t know what it is.
“Colony collapses are a good thing” does not pass the smell test in any capacity and I would disregard that opinion without some significant evidence to back it up.
It’s clearly a subjective statement. IMHO it is a good thing the same way a dairy going out of business is a good thing; it limits a human’s ability to perform mass scale abuse on animals and our environment.
I appreciate that you looked into it. I can also tell that this is your very first time looking into it, and you’ve approached it with the agenda of disproving me rather than enlightening yourself. I hope you will continue to consider the issue and allow your position to evolve.
I need to address the condescension in your response. I didn’t approach this with an agenda to disprove you. I shared what I understood and acknowledged uncertainty where it existed. That’s how honest discussions work. Your assumption that this is my “very first time looking into it” and that I need to “allow my position to evolve” is patronizing and unwarranted.
On the substance:
Invasive classification: The fact that ecologists are divided on this is exactly my point about nuance. You cannot simply declare something settled because “a large number of sources” say so when the scientific community itself is debating it. The article I cited explicitly states experts disagree. Your dismissal of this as regulatory capture (“captured government body”) is conspiratorial thinking that sidesteps the actual scientific debate.
Buzz pollination: You moved the goalposts. Your original claim was that honey bees “cannot effectively pollinate native plants” full stop. Now you’re talking about buzz pollination specifically. Yes, honey bees cannot buzz pollinate. But many native North American plants do not require buzz pollination and are effectively pollinated by honey bees. Tomatoes, blueberries, and cranberries need buzz pollination. Sunflowers, asters, goldenrod, and countless other natives do not. Your broad claim was incorrect.
Disease transmission: You completely missed my point. If the problem is industrial beekeeping practices creating disease reservoirs, then those practices are the problem. Colony collapse does not discriminate between well-managed hives and factory farm operations. It kills bees indiscriminately. Celebrating it as a solution is like celebrating a disease outbreak in factory farms instead of advocating for better practices.
Colony collapse as good: This is where your argument fully breaks down. Colony collapse disorder causes immense suffering to the bees themselves. If your concern is ecological harm, then advocate for reduced hive density, better management, or restrictions on commercial beekeeping in sensitive areas (which already exist in many places, as you noted with the USDA guidance). Celebrating the mass death of millions of bees as “a good thing” because it might inconvenience their owners is callous and doesn’t actually address the ecological concerns you claim to care about. Beekeepers respond to colony collapse by importing more bees and intensifying their practices, not by scaling back operations.
Your comparison to dairy farms going out of business is false equivalence. A business closing is a policy outcome. Colony collapse is an ecological disaster that happens TO the bees, causes them suffering, and does not reduce the overall population of managed hives because beekeepers simply replace losses.
I am genuinely interested in native pollinator conservation. But your position requires celebrating bee suffering as ecologically beneficial when the evidence does not support that conclusion, and better solutions exist.
Thanks for the informative link! Didn’t know they were not native to NA at all. The message here has always been “take care of the honey bees!” and that slogan now has a different meaning to me.
“Colony collapses are a good thing” does not pass the smell test in any capacity and I would disregard that opinion without some significant evidence to back it up.
Yeah, it seems like a pretty naive zero-sum outlook on competition between native pollinators and European honeybee colonies maintained by beekeepers.
Colony collapse disorder of honeybee colonies, if caused by land use and pesticides and pollution and things like that, can be an indicator of the native pollinator population also hurting from the same causes, rather than some kind of opportunity for native species to get the upper hand in the competition.
Also, nobody is talking about beetles. Beetles are one of THE biggest pollinating insects and are suffering massive decline, but I guess people are far more concerned with bees because they’re kinda cute.
Most people don’t go out of their way to learn about animal exploitation. But you definitely SHOULD. Please look it up and report back to us what you learned.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but it’s really in your own interest. And the interest of those you are unknowning cruel and violent to. The capitalist-built world that we exist within is designed such that if YOU do not go out of your way to learn about animal exploitation, YOU WILL be cruel and violent to vulnerable individuals who live in a constant state of atrocity.
So, you didn’t look into it, you don’t have anything to report back, but you DID take more of your time and my time to try to start shit.
In North America, honey bees are an invasive species that cannot effectively pollinate native plants, but compete with native pollinators for resources and spread disease. They only exist here to make money for their owner while degrading our collective environment. When you hear about honey bee colonies collapsing, that is perversely a GOOD THING.
I would do further reading on this, and not just rely on the “hot take” from one progressive youtuber. It’s a lot more nuanced and complicated than this.
Do you have a source on this? First I’ve read about honey bees being invasive.
If the claim were about yellow jackets I would believe it as they are still pollenators but not as effective as honey bees. Not to mention I see way more wasps, hornets and yellow jackets than honey bees combined in a single season. I’ll see maybe one honey bee (if I’m lucky) a year in northern Ohio, but the latter are everywhere up here.
Its much more nuanced than that. Honey Bees are not native, but that does not technically make them invasive by most definitions. Oversaturation on a local ecosystem can push out native bees in some cases (maybe)…
https://www.technologynetworks.com/applied-sciences/news/native-north-american-bees-mostly-seem-untroubled-by-invasive-honey-bees-391892
As for the claim about them not being effective pollinators… Ive not come across anything that would make me believe that yet. In fact my understand was that its specifically because theyre good pollinators that they outcompete native species. Without additional information those two statements are incompatible.
They can spread diseases, but my understanding is that this is a result of the conditions the artificial colonies are kept in, not attributed to their inherent nature or biology, and might happen to any species that is subjected to those environments.
“Colony collapses are a good thing” does not pass the smell test in any capacity and I would disregard that opinion without some significant evidence to back it up.
If one simply googles, “Are honey bees an invasive species?” one sees a large number of sources claiming they are. The very article you cite says that:
…so it’s hardly a knock-out punch. The article also notes that whether or not they are classified as invasive makes a huge economic difference to a lot of people, which means there is going to be money pressure to keep them classified as non-invasive. But they are non-native, and the harm they do is documented, so whether or not a captured government body classifies them as “invasive” for legal purposes is not super relevant.
Google: “honey bee” “buzz pollination” “north america”. Flowers and their pollinators evolve in lockstep. Honey bees cannot perform buzz pollination and their effective pollination rate is a fraction (my memory says less than an eighth).
Okay, but that’s how they exist here. There are not billions of feral honey bees running around, they are agricultural animals. When a wild hive is discovered, a beekeeper quickly comes and takes it for themself. That’s like saying, “Cow’s wouldn’t create toxic run-off in the wild.” So what? That’s not the issue!
The USDA advises people not to keep bees in parks, nature preserves, and other places where the local ecology is important. If that’s not dancing around the issue, I don’t know what it is.
It’s clearly a subjective statement. IMHO it is a good thing the same way a dairy going out of business is a good thing; it limits a human’s ability to perform mass scale abuse on animals and our environment.
I appreciate that you looked into it. I can also tell that this is your very first time looking into it, and you’ve approached it with the agenda of disproving me rather than enlightening yourself. I hope you will continue to consider the issue and allow your position to evolve.
I need to address the condescension in your response. I didn’t approach this with an agenda to disprove you. I shared what I understood and acknowledged uncertainty where it existed. That’s how honest discussions work. Your assumption that this is my “very first time looking into it” and that I need to “allow my position to evolve” is patronizing and unwarranted.
On the substance: Invasive classification: The fact that ecologists are divided on this is exactly my point about nuance. You cannot simply declare something settled because “a large number of sources” say so when the scientific community itself is debating it. The article I cited explicitly states experts disagree. Your dismissal of this as regulatory capture (“captured government body”) is conspiratorial thinking that sidesteps the actual scientific debate.
Buzz pollination: You moved the goalposts. Your original claim was that honey bees “cannot effectively pollinate native plants” full stop. Now you’re talking about buzz pollination specifically. Yes, honey bees cannot buzz pollinate. But many native North American plants do not require buzz pollination and are effectively pollinated by honey bees. Tomatoes, blueberries, and cranberries need buzz pollination. Sunflowers, asters, goldenrod, and countless other natives do not. Your broad claim was incorrect.
Disease transmission: You completely missed my point. If the problem is industrial beekeeping practices creating disease reservoirs, then those practices are the problem. Colony collapse does not discriminate between well-managed hives and factory farm operations. It kills bees indiscriminately. Celebrating it as a solution is like celebrating a disease outbreak in factory farms instead of advocating for better practices.
Colony collapse as good: This is where your argument fully breaks down. Colony collapse disorder causes immense suffering to the bees themselves. If your concern is ecological harm, then advocate for reduced hive density, better management, or restrictions on commercial beekeeping in sensitive areas (which already exist in many places, as you noted with the USDA guidance). Celebrating the mass death of millions of bees as “a good thing” because it might inconvenience their owners is callous and doesn’t actually address the ecological concerns you claim to care about. Beekeepers respond to colony collapse by importing more bees and intensifying their practices, not by scaling back operations. Your comparison to dairy farms going out of business is false equivalence. A business closing is a policy outcome. Colony collapse is an ecological disaster that happens TO the bees, causes them suffering, and does not reduce the overall population of managed hives because beekeepers simply replace losses.
I am genuinely interested in native pollinator conservation. But your position requires celebrating bee suffering as ecologically beneficial when the evidence does not support that conclusion, and better solutions exist.
Thanks for the informative link! Didn’t know they were not native to NA at all. The message here has always been “take care of the honey bees!” and that slogan now has a different meaning to me.
Yeah, it seems like a pretty naive zero-sum outlook on competition between native pollinators and European honeybee colonies maintained by beekeepers.
Colony collapse disorder of honeybee colonies, if caused by land use and pesticides and pollution and things like that, can be an indicator of the native pollinator population also hurting from the same causes, rather than some kind of opportunity for native species to get the upper hand in the competition.
Also, nobody is talking about beetles. Beetles are one of THE biggest pollinating insects and are suffering massive decline, but I guess people are far more concerned with bees because they’re kinda cute.
This guy is a giant wasp, don’t listen to him. He’s just trying to distract you so he can drink all the soda in your house
Most people don’t go out of their way to learn about animal exploitation. But you definitely SHOULD. Please look it up and report back to us what you learned.
Hmmm, make claim on internet. Don’t back up claim. Insisit I do my own research. Pretty Trolly take stranger.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but it’s really in your own interest. And the interest of those you are unknowning cruel and violent to. The capitalist-built world that we exist within is designed such that if YOU do not go out of your way to learn about animal exploitation, YOU WILL be cruel and violent to vulnerable individuals who live in a constant state of atrocity.
So, you didn’t look into it, you don’t have anything to report back, but you DID take more of your time and my time to try to start shit.