Its much more nuanced than that. Honey Bees are not native, but that does not technically make them invasive by most definitions. Oversaturation on a local ecosystem can push out native bees in some cases (maybe)…
If one simply googles, “Are honey bees an invasive species?” one sees a large number of sources claiming they are. The very article you cite says that:
Ecologists are divided [on whether honey bees are harmful enough to consider "invasive]. Some argue that honey bees behave invasively in certain ecosystems, particularly where hive densities are high and floral resources are scarce. Others emphasize that honey bees are just one of several stressors acting on already imperiled native bee communities, and that focusing solely on honey bees risks oversimplifying a multifactorial problem.
…so it’s hardly a knock-out punch. The article also notes that whether or not they are classified as invasive makes a huge economic difference to a lot of people, which means there is going to be money pressure to keep them classified as non-invasive. But they are non-native, and the harm they do is documented, so whether or not a captured government body classifies them as “invasive” for legal purposes is not super relevant.
As for the claim about them not being effective pollinators… Ive not come across anything that would make me believe that yet. In fact my understand was that its specifically because theyre good pollinators that they outcompete native species. Without additional information those two statements are incompatible.
Google: “honey bee” “buzz pollination” “north america”. Flowers and their pollinators evolve in lockstep. Honey bees cannot perform buzz pollination and their effective pollination rate is a fraction (my memory says less than an eighth).
They can spread diseases, but my understanding is that this is a result of the conditions the artificial colonies are kept in, not attributed to their inherent nature or biology, and might happen to any species that is subjected to those environments.
Okay, but that’s how they exist here. There are not billions of feral honey bees running around, they are agricultural animals. When a wild hive is discovered, a beekeeper quickly comes and takes it for themself. That’s like saying, “Cow’s wouldn’t create toxic run-off in the wild.” So what? That’s not the issue!
The USDA advises people not to keep bees in parks, nature preserves, and other places where the local ecology is important. If that’s not dancing around the issue, I don’t know what it is.
“Colony collapses are a good thing” does not pass the smell test in any capacity and I would disregard that opinion without some significant evidence to back it up.
It’s clearly a subjective statement. IMHO it is a good thing the same way a dairy going out of business is a good thing; it limits a human’s ability to perform mass scale abuse on animals and our environment.
I appreciate that you looked into it. I can also tell that this is your very first time looking into it, and you’ve approached it with the agenda of disproving me rather than enlightening yourself. I hope you will continue to consider the issue and allow your position to evolve.
I need to address the condescension in your response. I didn’t approach this with an agenda to disprove you. I shared what I understood and acknowledged uncertainty where it existed. That’s how honest discussions work. Your assumption that this is my “very first time looking into it” and that I need to “allow my position to evolve” is patronizing and unwarranted.
On the substance:
Invasive classification: The fact that ecologists are divided on this is exactly my point about nuance. You cannot simply declare something settled because “a large number of sources” say so when the scientific community itself is debating it. The article I cited explicitly states experts disagree.
Buzz pollination: You moved the goalposts. Your original claim was that honey bees “cannot effectively pollinate native plants” full stop. Now you’re talking about buzz pollination specifically. Yes, honey bees cannot buzz pollinate. But many native North American plants do not require buzz pollination and are effectively pollinated by honey bees. Tomatoes, blueberries, and cranberries need buzz pollination. Sunflowers, asters, goldenrod, and countless other natives do not. Your broad claim was incorrect.
Disease transmission: You completely missed my point. If the problem is industrial beekeeping practices creating disease reservoirs, then those practices are the problem. Colony collapse does not discriminate between well-managed hives and factory farm operations. It kills bees indiscriminately. Celebrating it as a solution is like celebrating a disease outbreak in factory farms instead of advocating for better practices.
Colony collapse as good: This is where your argument fully breaks down. Colony collapse disorder causes immense suffering to the bees themselves. If your concern is ecological harm, then advocate for reduced hive density, better management, or restrictions on commercial beekeeping in sensitive areas (which already exist in many places, as you noted with the USDA guidance). Celebrating the mass death of millions of bees as “a good thing” because it might inconvenience their owners is callous and doesn’t actually address the ecological concerns you claim to care about. Beekeepers respond to colony collapse by importing more bees and intensifying their practices, not by scaling back operations.
Your comparison to dairy farms going out of business is false equivalence. A business closing is a policy outcome. Colony collapse is an ecological disaster that happens TO the bees, causes them suffering, and does not reduce the overall population of managed hives because beekeepers simply replace losses.
I am genuinely interested in native pollinator conservation. But your position requires celebrating bee suffering as ecologically beneficial when the evidence does not support that conclusion, and better solutions exist.
If one simply googles, “Are honey bees an invasive species?” one sees a large number of sources claiming they are. The very article you cite says that:
…so it’s hardly a knock-out punch. The article also notes that whether or not they are classified as invasive makes a huge economic difference to a lot of people, which means there is going to be money pressure to keep them classified as non-invasive. But they are non-native, and the harm they do is documented, so whether or not a captured government body classifies them as “invasive” for legal purposes is not super relevant.
Google: “honey bee” “buzz pollination” “north america”. Flowers and their pollinators evolve in lockstep. Honey bees cannot perform buzz pollination and their effective pollination rate is a fraction (my memory says less than an eighth).
Okay, but that’s how they exist here. There are not billions of feral honey bees running around, they are agricultural animals. When a wild hive is discovered, a beekeeper quickly comes and takes it for themself. That’s like saying, “Cow’s wouldn’t create toxic run-off in the wild.” So what? That’s not the issue!
The USDA advises people not to keep bees in parks, nature preserves, and other places where the local ecology is important. If that’s not dancing around the issue, I don’t know what it is.
It’s clearly a subjective statement. IMHO it is a good thing the same way a dairy going out of business is a good thing; it limits a human’s ability to perform mass scale abuse on animals and our environment.
I appreciate that you looked into it. I can also tell that this is your very first time looking into it, and you’ve approached it with the agenda of disproving me rather than enlightening yourself. I hope you will continue to consider the issue and allow your position to evolve.
I need to address the condescension in your response. I didn’t approach this with an agenda to disprove you. I shared what I understood and acknowledged uncertainty where it existed. That’s how honest discussions work. Your assumption that this is my “very first time looking into it” and that I need to “allow my position to evolve” is patronizing and unwarranted.
On the substance: Invasive classification: The fact that ecologists are divided on this is exactly my point about nuance. You cannot simply declare something settled because “a large number of sources” say so when the scientific community itself is debating it. The article I cited explicitly states experts disagree.
Buzz pollination: You moved the goalposts. Your original claim was that honey bees “cannot effectively pollinate native plants” full stop. Now you’re talking about buzz pollination specifically. Yes, honey bees cannot buzz pollinate. But many native North American plants do not require buzz pollination and are effectively pollinated by honey bees. Tomatoes, blueberries, and cranberries need buzz pollination. Sunflowers, asters, goldenrod, and countless other natives do not. Your broad claim was incorrect.
Disease transmission: You completely missed my point. If the problem is industrial beekeeping practices creating disease reservoirs, then those practices are the problem. Colony collapse does not discriminate between well-managed hives and factory farm operations. It kills bees indiscriminately. Celebrating it as a solution is like celebrating a disease outbreak in factory farms instead of advocating for better practices.
Colony collapse as good: This is where your argument fully breaks down. Colony collapse disorder causes immense suffering to the bees themselves. If your concern is ecological harm, then advocate for reduced hive density, better management, or restrictions on commercial beekeeping in sensitive areas (which already exist in many places, as you noted with the USDA guidance). Celebrating the mass death of millions of bees as “a good thing” because it might inconvenience their owners is callous and doesn’t actually address the ecological concerns you claim to care about. Beekeepers respond to colony collapse by importing more bees and intensifying their practices, not by scaling back operations. Your comparison to dairy farms going out of business is false equivalence. A business closing is a policy outcome. Colony collapse is an ecological disaster that happens TO the bees, causes them suffering, and does not reduce the overall population of managed hives because beekeepers simply replace losses.
I am genuinely interested in native pollinator conservation. But your position requires celebrating bee suffering as ecologically beneficial when the evidence does not support that conclusion, and better solutions exist.