Your views are at odds with reality.

And surely you are able to point out what exactly am I wrong about? :)

I’m sorry that your current reality is an aggression into your homeland and that they’re calling on you against your will. That sure sucks.

It sure does :(

But even if goes against your wishes, peace doesn’t exist there (presumably you’re talking from the Ukraine) and liberties are the first thing to go when shit gets real

I am from Ukraine, but thankfully I am not in Ukraine, as I managed to escape it before the war started when it was still possible.
Peace was always possible, but Zelensky and his regime does not want it, because war is what allows him to stay in power and steal millions/billions of dollars.

No one pretended during the world war that they were a free and fair democracy

Zelensky does pretend that Ukraine is free and fair democracy though, and is lying to everyone’s faces that Ukraine is a democratic country that “doesn’t chase people with sticks to the frontlines”. He is a pathological liar, and unfortunately many people believe him.

Good luck with the ruskies, hope they die 2 per 1 shot at your country’s hands for what they’re doing.

The problem is not with “ruskies”, the problem is with Zelensky. Just 1 shot would be enough, and it can’t come soon enough. We can deal with Russia later.

When the left punishes you

When the left punishes you (without them even admitting or realizing it), your country is getting turned into a mass prison and your family, your friends, and you are then slaughtered in a war, all to the applause of the left, praising your dictatorial government for being heroes.
And then, when you try to show people what’s happening in your own country, the atrocities your own government is committing upon you, the left tries to silence you until you get slaughtered, or until it becomes irrelevant and everybody moves on and forgets about it.
That’s how the left punishes you.

At least with a loss of opportunities, you still have your life and other guaranteed freedoms to find a different opportunity.

Please tell me, and every other Ukrainian, how our life and “other guaranteed freedoms” is going? How we are able to leave the country if we want to, how we are not kidnapped from the streets (and soon will be from our homes) and sent to die? Please tell me more about it.

it is conservative/ right wing parties pushing for heavier surveillance of citizens.

My experience is totally different, although of course I don’t know the situation in whatever country you’re from.
Arguably, the main reason for surveillance (being able to read your communication) is to be able to censor you (prevent you from posting/saying things somebody else doesn’t like) or even punish you for something you say.
And I don’t see how can anyone argue that it is not the left that wants to censor everything and punish people for things they say :)

If somebody wants to actually try arguing it, please answer the following question (in parentheses I’ll leave the suggested answer 😉, but let me know if yours are different)

• Why is almost every free speech site is a right-wing site, and not a left-wing one? (because they are extremist, and we need to censor and jail them! but it is okay, because they are the bad ones and we are the good ones.)
• Is it okay to criticize alphabet people (and call them alphabet people ig 🙃), post statistics of violent crimes by race, and generally speak bad about minorities? (nooo, you can’t do that, we should protect minorities no matter what the reality is, you should be censored and jailed!)
• Is it okay to tell people what is actually happening in Ukraine and what atrocities Zelensky’s regime is committing? (nooo, you can’t do that, you’re a fascist and/or russian bot/propagandist, it’s all a lie even if you provide us with credible/primary sources, we should censor you as soon as possible for propaganda or misinformation or something and definitely jail you!)

Just today, news, this time directly from a Ukrainian source (so please use a google translate or something): https://focus.ua/uk/voennye-novosti/650441-mobilizaciya-po-novomu-viyskova-policiya-zmozhe-zahoditi-v-zhitlo-ta-vinagorodzhuvati-za-dopomogu

Now, we are not just going to be kidnapped on the streets, they are going to break into our homes, and kidnap us in front of our families and forcibly send to die.

But you still support it, after all it’s not some people worth worrying about, it’s just Ukrainians, we can be slaughtered till the last person in the name of geopolitics, right?

ancap think tank

So basically you have no arguments against what is said there, so you just attack the source instead of disproving anything that is written there? Very cool :)

online “museum”

But what sources would you expect? The mainstream media is not going to report every case, because it shows completely opposite view to the current propaganda that says that Ukraine is a democratic country where people want to fight and die for their glorious master leader Zelensky…
Here is a link for you to msn, is it a more reliable source which you would trust?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE
Some quotes from there:

When you see people in uniform, you panic. You start thinking someone will mobilize you now against your will
You worry that someone will throw you into the bus one day, take you somewhere, turn off your phone, and you will be cut off from the world"
It shows a physical fight between recruitment officers and civilians

Another article:
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html

Another article:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065

Telegram threads give tip-offs on where drafting officers are patrolling. There are chats for different regions and cities across the country, sometimes with more than 100,000 members each. there are reports of some being taken away on the spot, without a chance to return home.
But there are claims of officers using harsh or intimidating tactics. There are also reports of conscripts finding themselves on the front line with just a month of training.

Another article, also with a video of “man being dragged into van by conscription officers in Odesa”:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription

How many more sources you need to believe that Ukrainian government is kidnapping people on the streets, forcefully puts them into vans and then sends them to die? People who don’t want to fight for Zelensky, people who just one to live. They want to keep the one thing that is most precious to each human - their life. And our government, with support from your government, and people like you, is murdering thousands of us. Do you really support this? Would you still support it if it wasn’t random people you don’t know, but if it was your family, your father, your son if have one, your friends that were kidnapped and sent to die?

surely you are able to provide reputable sources

Sure :)

what makes the Ukrainian government illegitimate

This articles describes exactly my thoughts on this opinion: https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/the-end-of-zelenskys-legitimacy/

when it has kidnapped its own civilians and forced them to fight

Every day!
It doesn’t get shown in the western media, but if you subscribe to the local channels of big cities (Kiev/Odessa/Lviv/Kharkiv/etc.), or basically any sources actually covering what’s happening in Ukraine (in Ukrainian or Russian language), you will see videos of TCK (I dunno how to properly translate it, but that’s the government-military organization that does the kidnapping) posted almost every single day, people are caught on the streets and forcibly put into vans. Sometimes people manage to escape them, sometimes the crowd helps fight TCK off, but more often then not they get successfully kidnapped. Some villages got almost every men kidnapped that way (because previously they were scared to operate in big cities and preferred villages, but now they don’t give a shit about anything).
A very small portion of that is documented here: https://uadraftmuseum.ch/

What country are you from?

I’m from Ukraine. You can find a little bit more info about that in my other comments - but TLDR is that thankfully I have left it before the war started, some of my family managed to escape it (illegally of course, going through the occupied territories and then through Russia, it’s a mass prison now for most of the men there), but some are still trapped and trying to not get caught by the government, because if they do (and don’t have enough money for a bribe), they will be sent to the front lines and probably die.

I don’t see any fascist comments in your profile

Cool, thanks, glad to see someone here with whom it’s possible to have a conversation without getting called a fascist :)

but you do seem extremely pissed off that Ukraine is defending itself from Russia.

I am not pissed about Ukraine defending itself from Russia. I absolutely support the right of everyone, both people and nations, to defend themselves against an invader! I also never said that Russia are the good guys (and yet, I’m getting labeled Russian propagandist/bot as well, just saying that Russia invaded Ukraine and there is a war is a punishable offense in Russia for which I’d be sitting in jail 🤷). The problem is, it’s not “Ukraine defending itself from Russia”.
There is this propaganda from Zelensky’s regime that we are all volunteering to defend our country against “orcs”, and he is the hero that leading us into this battle. This is as far from the truth as it gets. We want peace, which he doesn’t even try to achieve (and why would he? War is what allows him to stay in power and steal millions, or likely billions of dollars). His regime needs to resort to kidnapping people on the streets and sending them to the front-lines to die. Some are refusing this and are getting sent to prisons where they are tortured. Some are trying to escape by the mountains/rivers and are dying while trying to do so. So yeah, what I’m pissed about is that the current government, supported by the west, may kill my family or my friends any day now, just like they already killed tens/hundreds of thousands already.
If it was like Zelensky’s propaganda is saying where we are defending our country, and our country was not turned into a mass-prison, I’d be sending donates to AFU every freaking month. But in this reality, any support for the current government of my country is equivalent to supporting my family/friends getting killed, and as you can imagine I am not going to do that, and trying to discourage everybody else from doing so.

Yeah, so that’s exactly what I’m talking about, just insults and complete lack of ability to have a normal discussion :(

So, if you have not moved on yet (if you have and/or are not willing to continue the conversation - please still think about it, it’s important for self-improvement) - I have just one question for you. In theory, if you were believing in something that is not actually true (of course this is impossible, as you are clearly intelligently superior than me and your every belief is correct, but let’s pretend otherwise just for the sake of a thought experiment), how would you expect to learn the truth, if you refrain from engaging in a civilized argument and call people that disagree with you trash and fascists? For example, if you lived a few centuries ago, and believed that Earth is flat (which is a normal thing to believe at that time btw, because that was the consensus of the majority) and you called everybody who says it’s round a fascist (at that time it would rather be heretic, but it doesn’t matter), how do you imagine a scenario where you learn the truth? Or are you saying that you don’t care about learning the truth?

Yeah, that’s true!
And then anyone can point out (and of course quote the exact text I’ve said without ripping it out of context and/or rephrasing it in their own words) which of the things I said makes me fascist :)
For some unknown (although deducible…) reason nobody has done that so far though, everyone prefers ad hominem attacks… Hm… It’s almost like actual by-definition fascists call me fascist just to make me look bad but have no arguments to support their claims… Weird, we all know the intellectuals of lemmy would be never do that :)

Aaaaand yeah, that’s exactly what I was talking about ^ :/

And you know the funniest shit about that?

wikipedia:

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy

That’s exactly, like exactly what I argue against, and those who call me fascist argue in favor. I’m getting labeled fascist by actual fascists XD

Telling people what’s actually happening in my country, and then getting called a fascist because it doesn’t align with what their very-independent and very-honest and totally-not-biased media tell them. That could have been fun if it wasn’t really sad :(

But what is disinformation in my comment?
What is it with lots of people here on lemmy that label everything that doesn’t suit their worldview as misinformation/disinformation/propaganda?
That and name-calling does not change facts, you know, it just shows to other people that you can’t argue your position…

What bridge?

Removed by mod

I bet you blame the Palestinians for the bombing of Raffa.

Well, you’ve just lost your bet. I condemn both the genocide of Palestinians (done by the USA through Israel), and the genocide of Ukrainians (done again mostly by the USA through Ukrainian government. Damn, those guys really do like massacring people all around the globe :/, almost like they are the bad guys, hm…).

You would blame World War II on the Polish.

Nope, I don’t, good thing you didn’t make a bet on it, otherwise you’d lose two bets in a row.
But I do blame Poland for participating in massacring Ukrainians though. In fact, Poland is among the worst offenders! It helps “heroes” of Ukrainian border guard to catch those who try to escape Zelensky’s meatgrinder, who then get sent straight to the meatgrinder… For that reason, people mostly escape to Romania. Thankfully, Romania is not as sadistic as the rest of the democratic & free world.

Not like that!
Others (preferably Ukrainians, we don’t consider them humans anyway, right?) should go and destroy Russia instead of me, I should be lying comfortably on my bed commenting how we should destroy Russia!
/s

Allowing Ukraine to defend itself is just the right thing to do.

Sure, supporting authoritarian government that forces desperate people trapped in Ukraine to die for their interest and political games is the right thing to do.

It is easy to support a genocide when it is not you and not your family that are getting massacred by Zelensky.

Hopefully Hungary will stay strong and continue to support Ukrainians, even if it is alone in doing so <3

I don’t use it either, but wikipedia (and common knowledge) suggests they do like censoring everything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Facebook