Ah, no TRUE interest and support. Got it. Just had to narrow and redefine the criteria once the initial claim was disproven.
No, I had to state my criteria, which I didn’t initially because I wasn’t writing a thesis. You seem to disagree disagree, but as stated above I consider Western conduct during 1996-2007 nothing short of farcical, so morally upstanding global citizens such as Bill Clinton and Tony Blair can take their so-called interest and support, shove it up their asses and die in a ditch so the next generation can at least try and get something done.
By the way, how is the Western “interest and support” now, with Hamas’s heroic efforts, going to lead to peace?
By cutting Israel’s access to trade and weaponry from its closest allies? This isn’t a hypothetical; this is actually happening (I know, not the most impartial source). To repeat, Palestinians have to survive Israel’s genocide first, but if they clear that (admittedly pretty big) hurdle their chances of liberation within a generation or two are actually looking pretty good.
… do you think Israel would be refraining from these crimes were it not for Hamas?
Yes, in their place they’d be (and are, in the West Bank) committing other crimes that are no less abhorrent but more ignorable on the global stage.
It was a major issue in the US, poster child for “I only know geography because of war”, during Bush Jr’s term, even despite the other much more major foreign policy issues taking up air in American electoral politics at the time.
Bush Jr’s term, which coincided with checks notes the Second Intifada. This is exactly what I’m talking about; you need something “newsworthy” to highlight all the horrible shit Israel does to Palestinians daily. Issues like settlements, Palestinian detainees and the Gaza blockade (until October 7th) only take prominence against the backdrop of a major upheaval by Palestinians or a major atrocity against them. It didn’t need to be Hamas doing (or being the excuse for) these things, but it is.
“Israel is focused on genociding Gaza, therefore, whoever is in charge there is the TRUE hero of The Resistance™ and Making A Difference™, unlike whoever is in the West Bank!”
I have no love for Hamas, but the idea that they’ve irrelevant to the Palestinian cause simply makes no sense. Would Good Friday have happened without the IRA? What about the overthrow of Apartheid without the ANC?
Love that Fatah is ‘deeply compromised’ while the literal Mossad plant is lionized.
I mean why is fascists being short-sighted assholes who only care about their own self-interest at the expense of the national interest (in this case oppressing Palestinians for as long as possible) that hard to believe? These guys supported the formation of a Hamas because they were “harmless apolitical Islamists;” that’s already enough evidence to declare them terminally stupid.
By cutting Israel’s access to trade and weaponry from its closest allies? This isn’t a hypothetical; this is actually happening (I know, not the most impartial source). To repeat, Palestinians have to survive Israel’s genocide first, but if they clear that (admittedly pretty big) hurdle their chances of liberation within a generation or two are actually looking pretty good.
Holy fucking shit.
This is pure delusion.
Yes, in their place they’d be (and are, in the West Bank) committing other crimes that are no less abhorrent but more ignorable on the global stage.
No less abhorrent? Fucking what. Do you understand what the difference between the treatment of the West Bank and Gaza?
What the fuck.
Bush Jr’s term, which coincided with checks notes the Second Intifada.
Yes, launched by the PLO.
Other than the dubious argument that there has been always been upheaval in Palestine - which would render the question of why Hamas is so bootlick-worthy - when exactly do you think there has been ‘calm’ with which to contrast your argument of supposed Western disinterest? Go on. Cite me a time when you think that Western disinterest was high.
This is exactly what I’m talking about; you need something “newsworthy” to highlight all the horrible shit Israel does to Palestinians daily. Issues like settlements, Palestinian detainees and the Gaza blockade (until October 7th) only take prominence against the backdrop of a major upheaval by Palestinians or a major atrocity against them. It didn’t need to be Hamas doing (or being the excuse for) these things, but it is.
And how did that go, ‘highlighting’ the treatment before Oct 7th? Surely there were dividends - increased Western support before Oct 7th, right? Awareness?
Oh, wait, of course, it won’t be ‘true’ awareness, because ‘true’ awareness is only when it’s in support of Hamas.
I have no love for Hamas, but the idea that they’ve irrelevant to the Palestinian cause simply makes no sense. Would Good Friday have happened without the IRA? What about the overthrow of Apartheid without the ANC?
This is more like ‘brilliantly’ maneuvering themselves into being slaughtered and their entire nation dismantled. You operate by citing groups which were at the head of a mostly-united struggle against their foe, and who eventually won - Hamas is not the united face of the Palestinian struggle, and it sure as shit is looking like anything but winning. “Would resistance have succeeded without resistance groups???” is completely ignoring that not all resistance groups are successful. Far fucking from it - they can be outright counterproductive. But I guess that’s only something that can be understood if the lionized Islamists du jour aren’t involved.
Counterculture as a lens of viewing politics is fucking cancer.
I mean why is fascists being short-sighted assholes who only care about their own self-interest at the expense of the national interest (in this case oppressing Palestinians for as long as possible) that hard to believe? These guys supported the formation of a Hamas because they were “harmless apolitical Islamists;” that’s already enough evidence to declare them terminally stupid.
I love that Fatah are fascists now. Deeply unfucking serious. Doubly absurd considering the lengths you’re going to play apologist for Hamas.
No less abhorrent? Fucking what. Do you understand what the difference between the treatment of the West Bank and Gaza?
Okay I misspoke there. The wars that Israel periodically launches in Gaza are worse than anything that happens in the West Bank. Outside of those, however, the scale is pretty comparable; you have airstrikes and the blockade on one hand and pogroms and arrests (glorified kidnappings) on the other.
Yes, launched by the PLO.
Yasser Arafat’s PLO and Mahmoud Abbas’s PLO are completely different entities and should be viewed as such. Yasser Arafat certainly wasn’t organizing crackdowns against Palestinian resistance organizations to appease Israel; he came from the era when the PLO conducted and organized resistance.
when exactly do you think there has been ‘calm’ with which to contrast your argument of supposed Western disinterest?
Any time before 1987, and the period between 1993 and the Second Intifada. Also the gaps between uprisings, wars and the like post-2007, so for example 2017.
Cite me a time when you think that Western disinterest was high.
Again, whether the West was interested doesn’t matter; the problem is whether they cared. How much grassroots action was there in Western countries to stop Israel from ethnically cleansing Palestinians before 2007?
And how did that go, ‘highlighting’ the treatment before Oct 7th? Surely there were dividends - increased Western support before Oct 7th, right? Awareness?
Uh… Yes? BDS’s size and reach is a good shorthand for how much Western sympathy that matters is with Palestine, and, well, you can see for yourself. I mean seriously there’s a reason Zionists hate these guys so much and it’s not because they were irrelevant until a year and a half ago.
Oh, wait, of course, it won’t be ‘true’ awareness, because ‘true’ awareness is only when it’s in support of Hamas.
What? Absolutely not. If it’s gonna lead to action their opinion regarding Hamas doesn’t matter. I mean I definitely want Hamas gone and replaced with a less tyrannical government.
Hamas is not the united face of the Palestinian struggle
They pretty much are. I mean they only really represent Gaza, but since the West Bank hasn’t really been doing much since the Second Intifada, the Palestinian struggle is only really happening in Gaza with a few flare ups in the West Bank every now and then, no thanks to the PA.
Far fucking from it - they can be outright counterproductive.
As opposed to… doing nothing? Because again that’s what Fatah has been doing since 2006—nothing. They’ve cracked down on Palestinian opposition to Israel more than they’ve done to oppose Israel.
I love that Fatah are fascists now.
Huh? I was referring to the Israeli right, which should’ve been obvious from context.
Any time before 1987, and the period between 1993 and the Second Intifada. Also the gaps between uprisings, wars and the like post-2007, so for example 2017.
The period between 1993 and 2000? You mean when it was one of the core foreign policy issues in US politics!?
2017? The first year of the fucking Trump administration, when the issue of Israel was front and center?
This is deeply unserious.
Again, whether the West was interested doesn’t matter; the problem is whether they cared. How much grassroots action was there in Western countries to stop Israel from ethnically cleansing Palestinians before 2007?
Palestinian activism was one of the issues of Western left-leaning parties outside the US in the 90s and 2000s, and of the left wing of the Dems in the US.
Uh… Yes? BDS’s size and reach is a good shorthand for how much Western sympathy that matters is with Palestine, and, well, you can see for yourself. I mean seriously there’s a reason Zionists hate these guys so much and it’s not because they were irrelevant until a year and a half ago.
BDS is overwhelmingly the result of a change in tactics, notably pre-dating Hamas’s ascendency, and popular support in the US for Palestine was largely static until Oct 7th.
They pretty much are. I mean they only really represent Gaza, but since the West Bank hasn’t really been doing much since the Second Intifada, the Palestinian struggle is only really happening in Gaza with a few flare ups in the West Bank every now and then, no thanks to the PA.
Oh, cool, so how’s the struggle in Gaza going?
Oh, they’re about to have the entire strip ethnically cleansed?
Good thing that Hamas was the one which managed to get international recognition towards a Palestinian state, it would have been really awful if those do-nothings in the PLO were the ones busy recieving international support while Hamas did Mossad’s bidding. I mean, wouldn’t it be horrific if it turned out that Hamas’s only achievements were helping Israel murder Palestinians, and people were defending them for it?
As opposed to… doing nothing? Because again that’s what Fatah has been doing since 2006—nothing. They’ve cracked down on Palestinian opposition to Israel more than they’ve done to oppose Israel.
Not that I think Fatah’s current route is productive, but yes, doing nothing is, by definition, better than doing something counterproductive. That’s literally what counterproductive means.
Huh? I was referring to the Israeli right, which should’ve been obvious from context.
Then I misread it. Apologies. That leaves the comment it was originally responding to uncontested, though, as Fatah being ‘deeply compromised’ while Hamas is lionized is absurd considering Hamas has been explicitly supported by Israel as their ideal partner in Palestinian genocide.
No, I had to state my criteria, which I didn’t initially because I wasn’t writing a thesis. You seem to disagree disagree, but as stated above I consider Western conduct during 1996-2007 nothing short of farcical, so morally upstanding global citizens such as Bill Clinton and Tony Blair can take their so-called interest and support, shove it up their asses and die in a ditch so the next generation can at least try and get something done.
By cutting Israel’s access to trade and weaponry from its closest allies? This isn’t a hypothetical; this is actually happening (I know, not the most impartial source). To repeat, Palestinians have to survive Israel’s genocide first, but if they clear that (admittedly pretty big) hurdle their chances of liberation within a generation or two are actually looking pretty good.
Yes, in their place they’d be (and are, in the West Bank) committing other crimes that are no less abhorrent but more ignorable on the global stage.
Bush Jr’s term, which coincided with checks notes the Second Intifada. This is exactly what I’m talking about; you need something “newsworthy” to highlight all the horrible shit Israel does to Palestinians daily. Issues like settlements, Palestinian detainees and the Gaza blockade (until October 7th) only take prominence against the backdrop of a major upheaval by Palestinians or a major atrocity against them. It didn’t need to be Hamas doing (or being the excuse for) these things, but it is.
I have no love for Hamas, but the idea that they’ve irrelevant to the Palestinian cause simply makes no sense. Would Good Friday have happened without the IRA? What about the overthrow of Apartheid without the ANC?
I mean why is fascists being short-sighted assholes who only care about their own self-interest at the expense of the national interest (in this case oppressing Palestinians for as long as possible) that hard to believe? These guys supported the formation of a Hamas because they were “harmless apolitical Islamists;” that’s already enough evidence to declare them terminally stupid.
Holy fucking shit.
This is pure delusion.
No less abhorrent? Fucking what. Do you understand what the difference between the treatment of the West Bank and Gaza?
What the fuck.
Yes, launched by the PLO.
Other than the dubious argument that there has been always been upheaval in Palestine - which would render the question of why Hamas is so bootlick-worthy - when exactly do you think there has been ‘calm’ with which to contrast your argument of supposed Western disinterest? Go on. Cite me a time when you think that Western disinterest was high.
And how did that go, ‘highlighting’ the treatment before Oct 7th? Surely there were dividends - increased Western support before Oct 7th, right? Awareness?
Oh, wait, of course, it won’t be ‘true’ awareness, because ‘true’ awareness is only when it’s in support of Hamas.
This is more like ‘brilliantly’ maneuvering themselves into being slaughtered and their entire nation dismantled. You operate by citing groups which were at the head of a mostly-united struggle against their foe, and who eventually won - Hamas is not the united face of the Palestinian struggle, and it sure as shit is looking like anything but winning. “Would resistance have succeeded without resistance groups???” is completely ignoring that not all resistance groups are successful. Far fucking from it - they can be outright counterproductive. But I guess that’s only something that can be understood if the lionized Islamists du jour aren’t involved.
Counterculture as a lens of viewing politics is fucking cancer.
I love that Fatah are fascists now. Deeply unfucking serious. Doubly absurd considering the lengths you’re going to play apologist for Hamas.
Thanks ;).
Okay I misspoke there. The wars that Israel periodically launches in Gaza are worse than anything that happens in the West Bank. Outside of those, however, the scale is pretty comparable; you have airstrikes and the blockade on one hand and pogroms and arrests (glorified kidnappings) on the other.
Yasser Arafat’s PLO and Mahmoud Abbas’s PLO are completely different entities and should be viewed as such. Yasser Arafat certainly wasn’t organizing crackdowns against Palestinian resistance organizations to appease Israel; he came from the era when the PLO conducted and organized resistance.
Any time before 1987, and the period between 1993 and the Second Intifada. Also the gaps between uprisings, wars and the like post-2007, so for example 2017.
Again, whether the West was interested doesn’t matter; the problem is whether they cared. How much grassroots action was there in Western countries to stop Israel from ethnically cleansing Palestinians before 2007?
Uh… Yes? BDS’s size and reach is a good shorthand for how much Western sympathy that matters is with Palestine, and, well, you can see for yourself. I mean seriously there’s a reason Zionists hate these guys so much and it’s not because they were irrelevant until a year and a half ago.
What? Absolutely not. If it’s gonna lead to action their opinion regarding Hamas doesn’t matter. I mean I definitely want Hamas gone and replaced with a less tyrannical government.
They pretty much are. I mean they only really represent Gaza, but since the West Bank hasn’t really been doing much since the Second Intifada, the Palestinian struggle is only really happening in Gaza with a few flare ups in the West Bank every now and then, no thanks to the PA.
As opposed to… doing nothing? Because again that’s what Fatah has been doing since 2006—nothing. They’ve cracked down on Palestinian opposition to Israel more than they’ve done to oppose Israel.
Huh? I was referring to the Israeli right, which should’ve been obvious from context.
The period between 1993 and 2000? You mean when it was one of the core foreign policy issues in US politics!?
2017? The first year of the fucking Trump administration, when the issue of Israel was front and center?
This is deeply unserious.
Palestinian activism was one of the issues of Western left-leaning parties outside the US in the 90s and 2000s, and of the left wing of the Dems in the US.
BDS is overwhelmingly the result of a change in tactics, notably pre-dating Hamas’s ascendency, and popular support in the US for Palestine was largely static until Oct 7th.
Oh, cool, so how’s the struggle in Gaza going?
Oh, they’re about to have the entire strip ethnically cleansed?
Good thing that Hamas was the one which managed to get international recognition towards a Palestinian state, it would have been really awful if those do-nothings in the PLO were the ones busy recieving international support while Hamas did Mossad’s bidding. I mean, wouldn’t it be horrific if it turned out that Hamas’s only achievements were helping Israel murder Palestinians, and people were defending them for it?
Not that I think Fatah’s current route is productive, but yes, doing nothing is, by definition, better than doing something counterproductive. That’s literally what counterproductive means.
Then I misread it. Apologies. That leaves the comment it was originally responding to uncontested, though, as Fatah being ‘deeply compromised’ while Hamas is lionized is absurd considering Hamas has been explicitly supported by Israel as their ideal partner in Palestinian genocide.