They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news. There’s a reason Hamas won that election in 2006.
They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news.
… Gaza was a big fucking deal back when Fatah was in power, and it was when Fatah was at the head of things that the peace process came closest to becoming reality, with significant Western interest and support.
… Gaza was a big fucking deal back when Fatah was in power
As a humanitarian disaster?
and it was when Fatah was at the head of things that the peace process came closest to becoming reality, with significant Western interest and support.
Before I respond, are you talking about the 2005-2007 period?
No, the 1990s, when it was one of the issues in US foreign policy.
Oh, you’re talking about that. In that case you should know that the period of the conflict where such a thing was possible ended when Rabin was assassinated and Netanyahu took his place. See: Literally his whole career, but most relevantly:
They asked me before the election if I’d honor [the Oslo Accords] […] I said I would, but … I’m going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I’m concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue.
And, well, there’s a reason they call him the king of Israeli politics and it’s definitely not because his policies are unpopular. Both Fatah’s Oslo-era strategy and the West’s strategy at the time were just never going to work with people like that.
In that case you should know that the period of the conflict where such a thing was possible ended when Rabin was assassinated and Netanyahu took his place.
… okay? How does that affect the fact that, demonstrably, Western and US interest was very acute and intense long before Hamas was a major force in the matter?
This is, after all, what you said and I objected to:
They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news.
Yeah fair enough I went on a weird tangent there. What I was trying to say was that the Western interest and support you were talking about was the kind that needed a good faith Israeli effort to amount to anything. There was no interest in forcing peace on Israel, is the point I was trying to make. That’s why when Israel put its foot down and said “nope” pretty much everyone played along, as best exemplified by the absolute shitshow that was Western reaction to the 2006 Palestinian elections. The kind of abject horror that’s now making four different heads of state say “we are not exporting weapons to Israel” (with varying degrees of truthfulness) to placate their populations simply wasn’t there. So to respond to your point: Western governments and people did want to being peace to Palestine, but it was viewed as just another regional conflict, not as settler colonists ethnically cleansing an indigenous population with Western support, so they were just another participant in the farce.
That’s why when Israel put its foot down and said “nope” pretty much everyone played along, as best exemplified by the absolute shitshow that was Western reaction to the 2006 Palestinian elections.
What reaction was it that you regard as a shitshow to the 2006 Palestinian elections?
The kind of abject horror that’s now making four different heads of state say “we are not exporting weapons to Israel” (with varying degrees of truthfulness) to placate their populations simply wasn’t there.
Yes, that’s taken an additional 20 years of Israeli massacres.
So to respond to your point: Western governments and people did want to being peace to Palestine, but it was viewed as just another regional conflict, not as settler colonists ethnically cleansing an indigenous population with Western support, so they were just another participant in the farce.
None of that has anything to do with the point regarding Hamas and whether its behavior has been in some way central to Western awareness of Gaza.
They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news.
Is your argument that Hamas running a disproportionately conservative mafia state in Gaza, funded by Israel and American ‘allies’ like Qatar, and the resulting tensions between Hamas and Fatah, wherein elections have been impossible for nearly 20 years now, has been in some way pivotal towards Western awareness of Israeli crimes?
Or has it been that the past 25 years of total domination of the Israeli right over the Israeli government has resulted in a government policy by the Israeli right that is, necessarily, more naked and brutal than ever to appeal to their core constituencies and hold onto power, alienating foreign allies to shore up domestic support, and Hamas’s contribution has been limited to boosting the polling numbers of Bibi et co?
I’m pretty sure that was after 2006. Leading up to the 2006 elections Hamas highlighted the success of violent resistance in ejecting Israel from Gaza compared to the abject failure of peaceful resistance by Fatah. My point here is that despite their many flaws, they actually get things done, and their getting things done is a large part of why the Palestinian cause has gotten as far as it has.
My point here is that despite their many flaws, they actually get things done, and their getting things done is a large part of why the Palestinian cause has gotten as far as it has.
Holy delusion. There has been no worse time for the Palestinian cause than now. They’ve been losing for 80 years again and again, and you call it success.
First of all, it’s incredibly telling that you care so much more about the Palestinian cause than the Palestinian people who are dying.
Who said that? I obviously don’t want Palestinian people to die, but that’s one thing and the geopolitical long-term view that Palestinians have a pretty good shot at achieving national liberation if they can survive this genocide is another.
Secondly, if you seriously think that BDS is going to bring down a nuclear armed nation state, you’re in for a rough awakening.
Well as it turns out, nukes don’t mean much if you don’t have the weapons to arm your soldiers, the money to pay them or the diplomatic cover to prevent Syrians and Lebanese from invading after you bomb them for the umpteenth time.
Hamas has been receiving Israeli support since the late 80s when it was founded.
I just checked and yeah that’s true fair enough.
What? Speeding up the genocide by being the Israeli right’s perfect foil in this grotesque kayfabe?
Any effective (or not so effective) act of resistance was going to be met with massive Israeli reprisal, so the only way to not be a foil for the Israeli right is to literally do nothing. See: Fatah.
Is that progress for the Palestinian cause?
If somehow Gaza survives this it’ll be very much a hotly debated “at what cost” kind of deal, because October 7th did start the countdown for the end of Israel’s current existence, but at present no, because of course there need to be Palestinians before there’s a Palestinian cause. That said that’s not my point; I was responding to the idea that Hamas has been just a parasite passively profiting off Palestinians’ suffering when in real life they’ve been an active contributer to the Palestinian cause while also profiting off Palestinians’ suffering. Whether you like their contribution or not (prior to October 7th anyway) is one thing, but they are and were an active resistance organization without which prospects for peace in Palestine would be completely different. I mean there probably wouldn’t be a genocide either, but again that’s beside the point.
If Fatah was still in power, Israel would’ve had a much more difficult time in demonizing Gaza in their propaganda outlets.
They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news. There’s a reason Hamas won that election in 2006.
… Gaza was a big fucking deal back when Fatah was in power, and it was when Fatah was at the head of things that the peace process came closest to becoming reality, with significant Western interest and support.
As a humanitarian disaster?
Before I respond, are you talking about the 2005-2007 period?
Yes. Since the fucking 90s.
No, the 1990s, when it was one of the issues in US foreign policy.
Oh, you’re talking about that. In that case you should know that the period of the conflict where such a thing was possible ended when Rabin was assassinated and Netanyahu took his place. See: Literally his whole career, but most relevantly:
And, well, there’s a reason they call him the king of Israeli politics and it’s definitely not because his policies are unpopular. Both Fatah’s Oslo-era strategy and the West’s strategy at the time were just never going to work with people like that.
… okay? How does that affect the fact that, demonstrably, Western and US interest was very acute and intense long before Hamas was a major force in the matter?
This is, after all, what you said and I objected to:
Yeah fair enough I went on a weird tangent there. What I was trying to say was that the Western interest and support you were talking about was the kind that needed a good faith Israeli effort to amount to anything. There was no interest in forcing peace on Israel, is the point I was trying to make. That’s why when Israel put its foot down and said “nope” pretty much everyone played along, as best exemplified by the absolute shitshow that was Western reaction to the 2006 Palestinian elections. The kind of abject horror that’s now making four different heads of state say “we are not exporting weapons to Israel” (with varying degrees of truthfulness) to placate their populations simply wasn’t there. So to respond to your point: Western governments and people did want to being peace to Palestine, but it was viewed as just another regional conflict, not as settler colonists ethnically cleansing an indigenous population with Western support, so they were just another participant in the farce.
What reaction was it that you regard as a shitshow to the 2006 Palestinian elections?
Yes, that’s taken an additional 20 years of Israeli massacres.
None of that has anything to do with the point regarding Hamas and whether its behavior has been in some way central to Western awareness of Gaza.
Is your argument that Hamas running a disproportionately conservative mafia state in Gaza, funded by Israel and American ‘allies’ like Qatar, and the resulting tensions between Hamas and Fatah, wherein elections have been impossible for nearly 20 years now, has been in some way pivotal towards Western awareness of Israeli crimes?
Or has it been that the past 25 years of total domination of the Israeli right over the Israeli government has resulted in a government policy by the Israeli right that is, necessarily, more naked and brutal than ever to appeal to their core constituencies and hold onto power, alienating foreign allies to shore up domestic support, and Hamas’s contribution has been limited to boosting the polling numbers of Bibi et co?
Israel giving them money?
I’m pretty sure that was after 2006. Leading up to the 2006 elections Hamas highlighted the success of violent resistance in ejecting Israel from Gaza compared to the abject failure of peaceful resistance by Fatah. My point here is that despite their many flaws, they actually get things done, and their getting things done is a large part of why the Palestinian cause has gotten as far as it has.
Holy delusion. There has been no worse time for the Palestinian cause than now. They’ve been losing for 80 years again and again, and you call it success.
Uh… enjoy. The Palestinian cause is doing pretty well… other than the genocide, anyway.
First of all, it’s incredibly telling that you care so much more about the Palestinian cause than the Palestinian people who are dying.
Secondly, if you seriously think that BDS is going to bring down a nuclear armed nation state, you’re in for a rough awakening.
Who said that? I obviously don’t want Palestinian people to die, but that’s one thing and the geopolitical long-term view that Palestinians have a pretty good shot at achieving national liberation if they can survive this genocide is another.
Well as it turns out, nukes don’t mean much if you don’t have the weapons to arm your soldiers, the money to pay them or the diplomatic cover to prevent Syrians and Lebanese from invading after you bomb them for the umpteenth time.
Hamas has been receiving Israeli support since the late 80s when it was founded.
What? Speeding up the genocide by being the Israeli right’s perfect foil in this grotesque kayfabe?
… Gaza is on the verge of total genocide, and the West Bank is looking to be next. Is that progress for the Palestinian cause?
I just checked and yeah that’s true fair enough.
Any effective (or not so effective) act of resistance was going to be met with massive Israeli reprisal, so the only way to not be a foil for the Israeli right is to literally do nothing. See: Fatah.
If somehow Gaza survives this it’ll be very much a hotly debated “at what cost” kind of deal, because October 7th did start the countdown for the end of Israel’s current existence, but at present no, because of course there need to be Palestinians before there’s a Palestinian cause. That said that’s not my point; I was responding to the idea that Hamas has been just a parasite passively profiting off Palestinians’ suffering when in real life they’ve been an active contributer to the Palestinian cause while also profiting off Palestinians’ suffering. Whether you like their contribution or not (prior to October 7th anyway) is one thing, but they are and were an active resistance organization without which prospects for peace in Palestine would be completely different. I mean there probably wouldn’t be a genocide either, but again that’s beside the point.
Ultimately and unfortunately Hamas has enabled the Israeli goal of splitting the West Bank and Gaza in the concept of Palestine.
The West Bank may soon be the only place of Palestine left, neither because of nor in spite of Hamas.
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